Skin Biology's Copper Peptides
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free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:29 pm

I’m a happy user of Skin Biology’s Copper Peptides (CPs) and have been asked to provide some info on them since they’ve been discussed in several different threads – just peppered around. This might put it all in one place for easier reference.

Copper Peptides are great skin remodeling products and have many studies behind them supporting their claims of: Rebuilds aged skin (tightens skin, improves elasticity and firmness, reduces fine lines, wrinkles, photodamage, and hyperpigmentation). Stimulates wound healing. Improves human hair growth and hair transplant success. Act as anti-inflammatories on irritated skin. Many of the studies provide exciting information about CPs. You can read about them here .

I’ve used CPs for 2 years, but took a 6 month break during ’09 while I tried another skin care line (unsuccessfully). When I started using CPs in ’08, I did a lot of research on them since there were both good and bad reviews on them. After a lot of reading, I felt *most* of the negative reviews were from people who either didn’t give the CPs a long enough time for a trial (they do take patience) or went too fast with them (they are very strong) and got some uglies. There are some reports of users who had some negative effects that lasted a long time or who so no improvement, so they do not work for everybody. It is very important to move slowly using CPs.

Moving on – I’d like to give some reviews of the CPs that I’ve tried. Skin Biology offers samples with the purchase of their products, so I’ve tried quite a few of them. CPs are also offered here at EDS, at NCN Skincare and at Diana Yvonne.com.

I have oily skin that tends to break out occasionally. I had very few *fine* lines or wrinkles on my face before I started(probably due to my oily skin and use of retinoids for so long). My concerns were mostly a ‘red’ appearance (from retinoids), some sagging from loss of elasticity, hooded eyelids that looked like they needed an upper bleph; a few wrinkles from expressions on my forehead, N/L’s and crow’s feet area. I had already started getting Botox for my 11’s and crow’s feet and had been investigating fillers for the N/L’s and a bleph.

Once I started using CPs, I ceased needing to investigate the need for the fillers and bleph. My elasticity improved enough that the N’Ls diminished quite a bit. Also, the skin on my upper eye lid firmed up immensely! I use to have a crepe paper texture to the skin there and the skin would drag when I applied eye shadow. If I pinched the skin – it would stay pinched for quite a few seconds. All this improved with the CPs within about 4 months or so. The flakiness and redness from the retinoids also diminished a lot. I have also had some scars (acne type ) fill in smooth with the use of CPs – simply amazing stuff for that. I even had a blemish of some sort (had been there for about 8 yrs) disappear with the use of CPs. A dr had even told me he could only remove that with surgery and the CPs did it with NO scar(it took some work – ie: exfoliatives and bathroom SX, though). Repeat – NO SCAR!

Overall, the texture and tone of my skin made a significant improvement. It was enough that I started to get carded in ’08 (I was 49 at the time). When I asked what the age requirement was – I found out that they had to card if they thought the customer was younger than 35. (!!!! That fed my ego). I also started using the CPs on my neck and found the texture there improved a lot too (still has some more to go). I have started using the CPs elsewhere (hands, body, for suntanning…). They have a product for just about any place on your body- LOL

I don’t consider myself an expert on CPs, but I may be able to point you in the right direction. Please add what you like about CPs that you have used so others may be able to decide what they should try. Just remember, they are strong remodeling agents and should be treated with respect. Also, you will get the best results if you add some sort of exfoliative (an AHA, BHA, manual or needling) to help ‘bring out the old’ skin and to let the CPs ‘bring in the new’ (SB’s marketing theme, not mine). CPs are called Skin Remodeling Copper Peptides (SRCP for short) for the action that they provide. I have found that they DO do that – esp on some newer scars I have had. I had a nasty blemish from a cyst last year (my experiment with that other skin care line) that looked like it was going to leave a huge depression. It filled in smoother and more poreless than the surrounding skin after I treated it repeatedly with CPs (mainly the SC2X). A few other scars left over from that experiment did not get treated right away and are noticeably depressed (in my mag mirror). I have had to work harder at getting those fixed since it takes using exfoliatives and repeated apps of CPs to get the skin filled in. It is coming along, slowly but surely. I see improvements every week and it has been 4 months since I started trying (I said it takes patience).

Sorry for the long post - will split up the rest for you from now on

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:34 pm

I want to add some additional information that I saved Oh-So-Long-Ago (when I first started my research on CPs). EDS has some awesome members and I would like to thank Molly (who may no longer participate) for what she shared:

COPPER PEPTIDES (contributed by Molly) 10-22-06 EDS

Copper peptides are always naturally present in the skin and there are higher levels of it when the skin has been damaged which triggers repair. Products containing Copper Peptides (CPs) are a way of introducing this function topically and using the natural process of healing to accelerate skin renewal. In tests copper peptides have been shown to; remove damaged proteins and collagen and stimulate the production of new GAGs (water holding proteins), elastin and collagen. CPs are also both anti-inflammatory and a potent anti-oxidant so skin improvements should be achieved without the kind of skin barrier irritation typically experienced when using retinoids or AHAs. The long-term result should be thicker, firmer skin with better moisture retention and (maybe) a reduction in wrinkles. This process is often referred to as ‘remodeling’.

What are they used for?
Primarily anti-aging, but also scar reduction and sometimes mole reduction or elimination. Some users recommend them just for healing after peels and microdermabrasion.

Product confusion!!! Which to use?
There are two types of copper peptide used in skincare products which causes some confusion; First generation CPs which are used in most products including Osmotics and Neutrogena and second generation CPs which are only used in Skinbio’s products and they have slightly different properties (so see note below about what you can use them with). Both were invented by Doctor Pickart who first worked for Procyte and then set up Skinbio (www.skinbio.com). More peer reviewed tests have been carried out on the ‘first generation’ CPs, but the products which use them have lower percentages than were used in those tests. The second generation CPs (Skinbio’s) only have tests behind them to prove healing not anti-aging so we can only assume that these will reduce wrinkles, but they do have the same percentages of the active in them.

What can’t you use them with
First generation CPs (e.g.Neova/Neutrogena) are not stable when used with acids so you cannot combine them with AHAs, BHAs, Retin A etc.

CPs of both kinds cannot be applied to the skin at the same time as Vitamin C because Vitamin C is neutralized by copper, (but only on the surface of the skin not once it has absorbed and become part of the skin matrix. In fact both copper and Vitamin C are naturally present in the skin at the same time.) A lot of users do combine CPs and Vitamin C by using one in the evening and the other in the morning.

How do you use them?
They can be used AM (as they do not make you sun sensitive) or PM, or both. It’s best to start with products with low concentrations until your skin is used to it. You can layer Skinbio’s CPs with acids (acids first then CPs) or Retinoids (retinoids first then CPs) and many other actives to speed up renewal.

Warning: Skinbio has some extra strong products – Tri-reduction, SuperCP serum, Supercop cream and Supercop X 2 which can be highly irritating and should only be used after months of use of the lower level products.

How long until I see results
A lot of people experience a glow and generally healthier skin very quickly down to the repair of the skin barrier and CP’s anti-oxidant properties, but to see signs of renewed proteins, increased moisturisation and collagen you should give it 3 months at least.

Problems
Some people experience ‘the uglies’ where people get fine lines and sagging skin at some point during use. There’s no agreement about the cause and it seems to particularly afflict people in the eye area. One theory puts this down to irritation from using too much too quickly or general overuse, another that some individuals might be hyper-sensitive to copper and finally that in some individuals the damaged proteins and collagen are being removed but for some reason the skin function does not replace these quickly enough . Some people carry on using albeit more slowly and ‘the uglies’ vanish, others find continued use doesn’t sort out their problem.

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:49 pm

Hi Autumn - it funny that you like the Sebum Be Gone. That one doesn't do much for my hyper-oily skin. Oh well

I do have some information that might help you decide where to start:

Strength of CPs: (from weakest to strongest)

• Super GHK-Copper Cream & Serum -Very, Very Mild ; Ideal for very sensitive skin. Can be used all over the face as well as around the eye area:
• Night Eyes Premier Very Mild: Ideal for skin around the eyes alone, a cream
• CP Night Eyes- Mild: Next step up to use around the eyes after Night Eyes Premier, a cream
• Body Lotion Mild; cream; no added fragrance (not a great smell either)
• Day Cover Mild: Facial Sun’screen’ with a small amt of TiO2 and loaded with antioxidants
• CP Serum Moderate, good on oily skin; serum based (thin)
• Protect & Restore #2 – Classic Moderate, good on oily skin, a cream
• Protect & Restore #3 – with Retinol Moderate, good on dry skin; a cream
• Trireduction with Retinol Strong, good on drier skin; a cream
• P&R for Breasts, Nipples, and Décolletage; Strong, good on sensitive skin; also works well on the neck area; a cream
• BioHeal Strong, meant for very sensitive or irritated skin: contains camphor and menthol as soothing agents;a cream
- Skin Signals Strong, good on acne prone skin; newest CP that has added peptides from enzymatically hydrolyzed elastin and collagen. Very thin (no thickening agents)- thinner than CP and Super CP serums.
• Super CP Serum – strong ; water based serum; takes a while for skin to adjust (work up to it with weaker CPs)
• Super Cop Cream Very Strong; cream based. Definitely need to work up to using this one. Spot treat best use, but some skin can handle it all over.
• Super Cop Cream 2X- Extra Strength Very, Very Strong: Best used for spot treating scars only

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:28 pm

foxe, do you dilute the skin signals, as well?

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:16 am

sister sweets wrote:

At this point I'm wondering is it best to use every night if you can for best results?

Do you always put Emu oil over the CP's? Does it have to be the one Dr. Pickart sells?

Regarding C serum - does the C negate the CP's or do the CP's negate the C?
I know it's supposed to be 12 hours between so what do you mean by ...you do 8 with no problem?

Do you have a specific cleanser that you like?

The nail peptide - What does this seem to do for you?

I guess that's enough for now. Thanks for your help.

Wow Sweets, Those are a lot of questions – no wonder you pushed for a thread. Very Happy

I can help a little. First and foremost NOT everything is set in stone when adopting your individualized routine. The most important thing though is to start with the mildest products using them lightly and go SLOW.

The #1 Biggest mistake people make is jumping in with stronger CPs before acclimating their skin. Then they are unhappy and give up. Like with Retin-A, you need to respect CPs - like Foxe said they are strong "remodeling agents".

If using Retin-A, alternating nights with CPs is good. If using Retin-A every 2nd or 3rd night, you can use your hydroxy exfoliator about 1 hr before your CPs on the alternating nights or on opposite ends of the day.

If using Vit C in the AM, it is best to keep them 12 hrs. apart. Vit C is fragile and has a hard time penetrating the skin. CPs cancel out the Vit C. But Dr. Pickart often say that some women use both together and have beautiful skin. Since so many women love Vit C this makes them feel better, I suppose? I read between the lines for this to mean that, the C may be cancelled out with CPs are doing all of the work, but it makes "Vit C lovers" feel better if they are using it. Also, taking 1,000 mg internally is vital for CPs to bond and better perform with rebuilding skin. I used SkinCeuticals Vit C/E/Ferulic Acid for many yrs and finally gave it up due to it's fragility with CPs. Felt I was wasting my $$$.

Any BHO on top of CPs is fine. Any cleanser is fine. Ph balanced is best no matter what skincare products you may use. I use the OMC.

Mostly, it depends what you are trying to achieve with your skin. If it is scar or stretch mark reduction, you will need to use more vigorous methods which may include stronger CPs, acids and needling. If you are more after anti-aging, then mild to moderate hydroxys and CPs is all that may be necessary.

Hope that Helps!

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:39 am

Autumn1995 wrote:

Thanks for detailed information.

My skin is very similar to yours. I think I will write the mfg for suggestions on where to start. The SB are reasonably price IMO. I only have one product but it does work. (SB Sebum Be Gone. reviewed)

Hi Autumn, You may want to start off with Super GHK Serum and Exfol (2% Salicylic Acid) - great for oily skin, then move to reg CP Serum.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:36 pm

foxe wrote:

The nail peptide - What does this seem to do for you? I had terrible nails that would not grow. I had psoriasis in them when I was a kid and the nail bed became damaged from that. They always split, peeled and broke easily. The Tin Peptide really improved the health of them and they did not split or peel as much. I also found out that the psoriasis that was in them in my youth might have had some fungus in them and recently tried a product that is anti-fungal. That product (Manuka Oil) and the Tin Peptide has really given me some pretty looking nails. I am always getting compliments on them now and asked if they're real. But, I think for most ppl (who haven't had the fungus/psoriasis) the Nail Peptide would be just right. It stengthened my nails and gives a lovely shine.

The Tin Peptide used in the nail product is the same as the one in Folligen For Blondes which I LOVE. You get a free nail treatment when you apply the hair product and massage in with your fingers! Very Happy

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:03 am

sister sweets wrote:

Thanks Star - What have you used around your eyes to get your results?
Do you use CP's twice per day? (did I ask that already Rolling Eyes

)

What body lotion do you use? Is the basic unscented - meaning it won't interact with other scented products.

What other skin products do you use? Do you use exfol? retin a?
I know you said you like Skin Signals but do you use others on your face, neck aside from this?

TIA.

Bethany - the folligen sounds very interesting.

Sweets, you are the inquisitive one.

I like the Lavender Scent Body lotion the best. I have not tried the unscented, but I am sure it would be nice too.

I introduced Retin-A (.025 - .05) a few yrs back. Only use it every 3rd night. I like to use Exfol in the AM followed by SS/Emu/DayCover, then LacSal in the eve on the nights I don't use Retin-A.

On the eyes, I started with Super GHK/ then Night Eyes Premier/ CP Serum/ then Super CP Serum over a course of time. Emu as my moisturizer. It took about a year for any real noticeable change to take place. Now I use SS/Emu lightly in the AM only. That's it!

I also like to REST my skin at least once a week by using P&R Cream only. I have found a nice balance for myself. Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:51 am

Skippie wrote:

I'd actually love to use CPs in the morning instead of vitamin C, BUT I'm worried about which sunscreens I can use. I need lots of protection as I live in the south and work outside in my yard a lot. I know you're not supposed to use zinc with copper, and I have my doubts that the day cover product would provide enough protection. Can anyone recommend a good sunscreen to pair with CPs?

Skippie, I too have finally given up on juggling my SkinCeuticals Vit C/E/Ferulic into my CP routine. I prefer to use my Skin Signals in the AM. I have used DayCover for years as my last step before MMUP. The Titanium Dioxide protection for me is enough for daily use and even when working outdoors.

Here is another product I may try this summer for extra protection. It is right in line with the Spirulina Thread - Algae based. Cool

I no longer use any ZO in my MMUP or in my SS since it interferes with CPs. Titanium Dioxide is a better choice with CPs:

Helioguard 365 - Natural Sunscreen for UV-A Skin Protection Against Photo-Aging

Quote:

Helioguard 365 is a natural UVA sunscreen from Porphyra Umbilicalis
The principal etiologic factor in premature skin aging is UVA. In contrast to UVB, UVA is not much dependent on daytime and season and penetrates rather well through clouds and window glass. Our skin needs therefore help against the daily exposure to UVA.

Cosmetic ingredients that we use every day should be absolutely safe. Mycosporine like amino acids, UVA sunscreens produced by certain algae, corals and zooplankton, are a natural and safe alternative to synthetic UVA sunscreens. These organisms that live in shallow water or at the beach where they are exposed to extreme UV radiation, produce the most powerful UV-absorbing substances in nature. Mindy found in the red alga Porphyra umbilicalis, better known as Nori, a traditional sea vegetable, a rich source of mycosporine like amino acids.

free skin care · Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:22 am

Per Nanci's newsletter regarding the CP and ZO sunscreen:

"I also want to mention (thank you summer2004 for the reminder!) that Copper Peptide should be used at night if you wear sun protection that contains Zinc Oxide. I've been back and forth on this subject with Dr. Pickart for months. I've applied sunscreen with Zinc Oxide over my CP for years without any issues at all and with nothing but great results. BUT Dr. Pickart told me that "SOME women say their pores became larger after using zinc oxide. Skin acids could release ionic zinc and this could block the copper effects". He also told me "I often tell clients to use CP Serum or a CP Cream under their sunscreen as a barrier". That sounds like a contridiction to me and he did not elaborate any more on the subject. So with that, I say better safe than sorry and use your Copper Peptide at night if you wear sunscreen or mineral makeup with zinc oxide. If you've been using it like I have, with no problems at all, you can continue to do the same."

free skin care · Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:15 am

sister sweets wrote:

Star - Where do you purchase Helioguard 365?
I am not having luck finding a distributor.
Thanks.

Good question Sweets, Dr. Pickart sent me the info on Helioguard, but I have not researched where it can be purchased. I think it is an active ingredient. It is more than likely available outside of the US, but I will see what I can find out.

free skin care · Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:15 am

I think more than anything that much of the confusion surrounding CPs is that many are looking for a "cookie cutter" guideline to follow. But there are many variations that work and it also depends on what you are trying to achieve.

Some are going for scar removal, others just overall tightening and thickening and clarity of the skin. Also, skin types vary.

I haven't used GHK in quite sometime and did not use Retin-A when I was using it. I used it around my eyes for over 1 year before moving up. So I am not 100% sure if they can be used together (like CPs and Retin-A), but I will see if I can find out from Dr. P. This would be from a "GHK fragility" stand point.

Here are a few basic rules that I can outline to follow:

1.) CPs and topical Vit C should be separated by 12 hr.

2.) If using a ZO SS, use CPs in the PM - (Titanium Dioxide is preferred but not required)

3.) Apply Hydroxy Acids either on the opposite end of the day from CPs or 1st with a min 20 – 30 min wait.

4.) Apply Retin-A 1st with at least 30 min wait time. This will give you the most out of Retin-A and *most preferable*.

- a.)They can also be used together to reduce Retin-A irritation, but this also reduces Retin-A effectiveness (good for new Retin-A users)
- b.) Retin-A after amplifies CPs but may cause CP irritation. (better for targeting deep scars)
- c.) Alternate Retin-A with Hydroxy's (Retin-A every 2nd or 3rd night)

5.) Use products lightly and go slow. Progressing at your own pace.

6.) Emu or Squalane 1st will reduce CP uptake (good for new users and eyes)

7.) Emu or Squalane on top will help to push CPs deeper into the skin to get down into the dermis.

8.) Using weekly exfoliating scrubs or cloths are recommended to encourage cell turnover.

9.) Also take 1,000 mg Vit C, MSM and Omega 3 to aid in skin repair.

10.) Avoid stress.(easier said than done)! Laughing

I'm sure there is more, but these are some of the basics. Hope that Helps a little more. Smile

free skin care · Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:37 am

foxe wrote:

bethany wrote:

BTW, who has Dr. P's book other than me?

Not me. I always thought the book was an organized version of what he has on the website - and heaven knows, I've read all of that stuff!

I have Dr. P's book. It is a good guideline, but as things progress he updates info on the SB site.

He supposedly has a new version due out.

free skin care · Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:12 am

alexes - you should defintely dilute the Night Eyes somehow, but it being a cream makes it a little harder to do. You can use just a little of it or alternate days to start. You can also use Emu oil underneath to buffer it. I used 2 other products (milder ones) on my eyes before moving up the NIght Eyes and I saw some uglies when I moved up(they did not last)

The CPs are strong, so respect that fact. Don't let it scare you, though. Just tread a little slower even though you might be impatient and want to see faster results.

I think the Night Eyes is gentler than the CP Serum for under you eyes, but you can also dilute the Serum easier, so it's up to you.

You should also add 1000mg Vitamin C and 1000mg MSM to your supplements. Adding these really helps the CPs work better. Vitamin C should be taken twice per day (500 mg each)

free skin care · Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:57 pm

JLM wrote:

However, my spots have gotten *darker*-- strange, because I've also been using Lemon Peel Bioferment on the spots, which had made them lighter than they've been in years. I suppose the darkness is the pre-existing damage that is surfacing, ready to be sloughed off? I hope so! We'll see what happens...

I'm also starting my hubby on the SS-- he has *no* skincare routine except shaving, and it's starting to show! Will continue to update...

I can confirm from experience, that sun damage will get darker as it slowly pushes up. It becomes more apparent at 1st. But it will gradually slough off using your hydroxys and abrasion techniques. It would be better for you and your husband to work your skin up to Skin Signals which is quite strong. CP Serum will help to acclimate your skin to CPs. Your husband will probably do better with Super GHK or CP Serum.

Unless diluting, Skin Signals is too strong to start out with. You need to gradually increase CPs to get the best benefits - Similar to Retin-A. Starting off too strong may bring the damage up too quickly. Also alternating days or nights is best for new users.

The main reason to go slow with CPs using milder products 1st, is to avoid too much action at once. Some call this the *uglies* and many have more damage under their skin than they realize.

So slow is better.

free skin care · Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:11 pm

moosejavian wrote:

Is it ok to start with diluted CP serum on top of Emu oil for around the eyes or is that still too strong? TIA!

CP Serum is a bit stronger than the GHK I first used on my eyes, so diluting it is a good idea.

I'm not sure I'd do both the dilution with H2O AND Emu underneath in the beginning, though. Try one or the other first. If you see your skin reacting to the CPs, then I might do both.

free skin care · Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:52 pm

moosejavian wrote:

Is it ok to start with diluted CP serum on top of Emu oil for around the eyes or is that still too strong? TIA!

Yes, That is a perfect plan! Once a day only. Emu only on the opposing end of the day.

free skin care · Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:37 am

moosejavian - Dr P has said it's OK to first use a CP, then top with emu (or squalane) before using a zinc based SS. Try it and see how it goes. I don't think everyone reports the large pores - just 'some people'.

free skin care · Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:08 am

To avoid any problems with ZO SS, I use SB's DayCover (Titanium Dixoide-based) as my last step before MMUP. That has worked well for me over the last several yrs.

I no longer need to worry about the possibilty of enlarging pores or the zinc interferring with CPs. I get plently of daily sun protection from TD.

If anything, my pore size has reduced over the yrs. I have a little bit course, thicker skin. My pores tend to clog easily if I don't exfoliate enough. I am in *awe* of those who are tight-pored and flawless by nature. But sometimes sensitivity comes with that skin type.

It's true, that very few of us can have it all in the skin dept. Laughing

That is why we need to work on it so hard!

free skin care · Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:31 am

foxe wrote:

do not use the Bio Active cream at night with your CPs as the Bio Active has Ascorbyl Palmitate (vitamin C) in it. This will cancel out the GHK.

Hi EDSers! I want to comment on a topical Vitamin C and GHK (or 2nd gen CPs) being used together. This is the correct information from Dr. Pickart's right hand wo-man, Cassie.

"Biochemically vitamin C and copper should be opposed to one another, with the copper canceling out the effects of the vitamin C. So in the past we used to advise clients to use their vitamin C products on alternate days than the copper-peptides.

However, in practical application it doesn't seem to be posing as much of a problem as we had once thought. So Dr. Pickart had us remove this suggestion from our websites and printed material.

This could very well be due to the fact that vitamin C is a larger molecule that is very difficult to penetrate the skin topically. So there might not even be enough of vitamin C getting into the skin to pose a problem with the copper-peptides. Or perhaps the so-called vitamin C product has too little of vitamin C in it in the first place (Dr. Pickart recommends that although vitamin C is great for the skin, it is really best taken as an internal supplement).

But we do have many clients who use copper-peptides along with their topical vitamin C products and have reported nothing but great results. It should be fine to use the two together. If clients still are looking at it from a standpoint of what it could possibly do, they can always choose to use it at the opposite end of the day or on days that they are not using copper-peptides. It is up to them. But there are no longer printed instructions advising clients to do so."

free skin care · Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:10 pm

brierrose - As far as I can recollect it is recommended 2:1 MSM to Vitamin C. Example: 2000 MSM to 1000 C. I probably take higher amounts of both.

Anyone know differently please feel free to chime in.

Can't answer the day cover question - This one is for Star.

free skin care · Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:52 pm

Twinkle66 wrote:

Oh I'm so happy to have found this forum. You guys seem really knowledgeable and I've been trying to get help with this for a while. So thanks for being here!

I've been using a CP serum for a couple of weeks. I'm going to be starting Retin-A micro soon as well. I've been able to find info on advice of using regular retin-a with CPs, but I couldn't find anything regarding the micro gel, as I know that it is slow released and would therefore probably have a longer half life and need to be allowed to absorb longer before you put the CPs on top.

So you put the CPs on first then, do you know if this works with all CP serums, would they all be the same pH? I use a 2nd generation one from a really good Doctor here in Sydney, Australia (though next time I'm going to look into the Skin Biology range you guys are talking about as it seems way better value for money) The ingredients are pretty similar to the Skin Biology CP serum.

So would you recommend I apply this first and as long as it has fully dried then I can apply the retin-a micro. I really don't want the CPs to interfere with the retin-a micro as I'm going to be using it as a maintanence to keep acne away after I finish my accutane course, but I also really want to use use CPs for my pigmentation and scarring.

Also after I use what I have of my CP serum would you reccomend going up to the higher strength Skin Biology's Super CP serum.
Oh dear, I've written so much and feel like I'm demanding a whole lot of info from you. I do appologize! Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated, thanks so much Smile

Hi Twinkle66 – sorry I didn’t see this earlier. I recently switched to Retin A Micro and can tell you it’s a great retinoid to use. For one, it is not as irritating as other retinoids and that is due to its micro-encapsulation and slow release. Second, it has a neutral pH (around 6.0) and with the pH of CPs also being around 6.0, there will be no need for a ‘wait’ time like the other, lower pH products that need to sit alone to work while the pH slowly rises. You will need to follow some simple rules for product penetration, though. These can be applied to just about any product you use based on the thickness or consistency of it. Of course, using a product with a lowe pH would supercede these rules (low pH products first!)

When applying or layering any skin care product, apply in the following order to ensure good penetration of your active ingredients.
1. serums
2. gels
3. biological oils
4. creams
5. sun screen

With most products, you will need to let the first one absorb before applying the second one. With the CP Serum and the Retin A Micro – give the serum about 10 minutes or so to sink in before applying the retinoid. Using Retin A Micro simplifies the routine a bit! If you use a cream based CP, you can apply it after the retinoid.

I apply the Micro after my CP Serum or Skin Signals (serum) and I’m beginning to think that applying the Micro on top of the CPs has an effect of pushing the CP into the skin better due to the micro-encapsulation of the Micro. My skin really likes using it like that.

Moving up to Super CP Serum is the next step up in strength and would be a good choice for treating acne scars. You might also want to consider the Skin Signals (in between CP Serum and Super CP Serum), but that one might be more for firming of skin with the added elastin and collagen. FYI – I spot treat acne scars with the SC2X. It’s very strong stuff and should be reserved for spot treating. I just use a sample size and it lasts me for months.

I wonder if that doctor in Sydney you referred to is Dr Phillipa McCaffery? She is the one that wrote about using CPs with rollers for the Skin Biology website. SB must be letting her sell a 2nd gen CP of her own. Considering that SB still has a patent on the 2nd generation CPs, that’s saying a lot.

free skin care · Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:00 am

foxe wrote:

Nanci - thank you, thank you so much for sharing your wealth of info on this thread - it's contributed so much to it.

I take 1 gr (1000mg) each of Vitamin C and MSM due to hearing about it from all my research on CPs (and most certainly, from Dr P always stressing it). You, my dear, have explained it way better though.

And, this might also be why I have experienced such great results with CPs Smile

.

BTW - it is better to take your vitamin C divided into 2 doses of 500mg each twice per day rather than one 1gr dose. What your body does not need will be eliminated through your urine. I take a slow release version myself.

sister sweets wrote:

brierrose - As far as I can recollect it is recommended 2:1 MSM to Vitamin C. Example: 2000 MSM to 1000 C. I probably take higher amounts of both.

sis - I thought the amt was 1 gr each, but Dr P often gives differing advice, so I can't be certain. I am sure I've read that the minimum should be 1 gr each at least. But, if you included some C in your diet as Nanci mentioned, then a 500mg dose of C should do it.

Thank you foxe - I appreciate it! Ideally you want 1 gr (1,000 mg) daily of both Vit. C and MSM. I take 500 mg. in the am and 500 again in the pm. A time released Vit. C is best since it doesn't stay in our bodies (water soluble). You're doing it the right way foxe!

free skin care · Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:46 pm

moosejavian wrote:

sister sweets wrote:

I think Kassy was using this on her lashes. Thanks for reminding me - I wanted to give this a try as a conditioner and possible growth promotion!

Sis, do you think there would be a concern with using the Folligen on the eyelid area for someone new to CP? I am assuming not if SB is indicating it. I wonder what the effects will be if you accidentally get it in the eyes?

Hi MJ,

You can see what Marta at truth in aging says about using folligen on lashes, she experimented herself. There is a full ingredient listing there as well. Smile

http://truthinaging.com/eyes/folligen-works-for-eyelash-and-eyebrow-growth/

free skin care · Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:54 pm

beann1210 wrote:

Foxe - Thanks so much for all the information. I promise to work slow and do it right. I will be patient. One question: You said that I probably shouldn't use the Exforderm, but on the SB web site they recommend to use an exfoliator with the CP. Do you think it's too much for my skin right now?

Yes, I do think it's too much. Your skin seems to be pretty fragile. You might get *faster* results with the exfoliator, but you also might have more irritation. I'd hold off on the red look.

Quote:

One more question (I lied about the "one more question" last iime): Laughing

Can someone tell me how to post using just part of a quote and not the whole darn thing? Confused

Star ~ Thanks for all the great info.

Hit the quote button and delete what you don't need between the [quote] [/ quote] brackets (make note of them when you look at the quote). I usually copy the whole bunch and put it into a word doc and redo it, though because (for some strange reason) the darn program here at EDS does such weird things like jumping around when I type that I can't do anything properly. I then copy it to the 'reply' page and post it.

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