Candessence review - 5 face products - OK, but.....
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free skin care · Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:46 pm

Wild Cat wrote:

I hope the triple C sample I ordered two days ago is the new formula...I don't particularly like Aloe Vera on my face...just a personal preference. I can't wait for my package to arrive Pray

Actually, the Triple C serum never had aloe vera in it. Very Happy

free skin care · Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:56 pm

Really? Then I must have read it wrong somewhere. That's even better then. I hope I will love Triple C as much as katee...but my routine is already pretty full...sigh...the temptation to try new and better things is just too great Embarassed

free skin care · Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:39 am

Does sound much nicer with the aloe gone, which was my main textural issue with these products. Love the liquid OBGs myself, but I'm still doubtful about combining L-Ascorbic with natural ingredients until I read otherwise.

And some silicones I like, some I don't; they seem to have their different qualities and I haven't worked out which are which yet.

Anyway, that's all theoretical now because I'm making my own C stuff.

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:51 am

Molly, you have made this stick in my head too.

My skinceuticals CEF has propylene glycol and something called Ethoxydiglycol (which also sounds not good at all from what i googled).

I have a c serum made with aloe and rose hydrosol which sounds nice but might not be because of the C plus plant material theory. Confused

is there no way out of this unless we make our own C every few days in water (but i think i heard C oxidizes in water too)?

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:09 am

skincareaddicted wrote:

Molly, you have made this stick in my head too.

My skinceuticals CEF has propylene glycol and something called Ethoxydiglycol (which also sounds not good at all from what i googled).

I have a c serum made with aloe and rose hydrosol which sounds nice but might not be because of the C plus plant material theory. Confused

is there no way out of this unless we make our own C every few days in water (but i think i heard C oxidizes in water too)?

Hi Kristen
Ethoxydiglycol sounds fine to me - supposed to be a good penetration enhancer.

But on your main point (correct me if I'm wrong here Wink

) but I think you're misunderstanding the issue.

This isn't about 'oxidization' and yes, all water based C-serums will suffer from that over time. (You could make an anhydrous one to counteract that out of silicones.)

This is about the small traces of metals found in all plant derivatives which are then broken down by the L-ascorbic in vitro (ie. in the product bottle). Products tend to use chelators to counteract this well-known effect of the L-Ascorbic.

I would imagine (I have no way of knowing for sure) if you use 1% OBG it would do much less of this than say using large percentages of Aloe vera or plant hydrosols.

Does anyone else want to jump in here and clarify this because I'm obviously not making a very good job of it; Tangal, Theresa Confused

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:40 am

Hi Molly,

you're right, i keep confusing the two problems (oxidation and plant material)! i can't keep my head straight these days especially with the C's Embarassed

. and your explanations are fine by the way.

Since we have no research saying plant materials are definitively bad, my main question now is what is the best "natural" base for l-ascorbic acid?

Kristen~

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:44 am

Kristen
I'll just go back to that well informed response from Liz over on Skininteractive and pluck out a few of the salient points.

(LAA = L-Ascorbic Acid)

"2- LAA has dual effects to be an antioxidant/pro-oxidant but only becomes pro-oxidant in the presence of metals, Fe, Cu e.g..It acts on the metals to reduce the metals."

"5- Pro-oxidation of LAA to reduce metals may not be apparent at first so this does not mean redox actions have not taken place possibly inducing radical damage. Some of LAA rapidly transitions to DHA in solutions.

(following is in answer to a question about whether to expect colour changes in a serum where the L-Ascorbic has broken down plant based metals)

"6- Based on this my premise would be you would not see a change in color (yellowing) at first using Bio oils if they have reactive metals esp. if there is no water or other aqueous ingredients in the bio-oils.

However the metals will oxidize the LAA more rapidly depending on the percent of LAA in solution or oil and once pro-oxidation occurs how much LAA is free to do its antioxidant protection of lipids? This is the key point one to research."

http://www.skininteractive.proboards28.com./index.cgi?board=antioxidants&action=display&thread=1168560732&page=1

So, in summary, you are lessening the potency of the L-Ascorbic in a serum to do it's job.

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:52 am

skincareaddicted wrote:

Since we have no research saying plant materials are definitively bad, my main question now is what is the best "natural" base for l-ascorbic acid?

Kristen~

I wouldn't say that was quite the case, but if you really want to use a 'natural' base then I'd go for the liquid OBG's because that's 99% unnatural Laughing

But if you want to be 100% sure go for HA which, if you read the thread above a post by Dev points out it has some other positive benefits too using alongside LA.

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:59 am

Hi Molly,

I haven't read the research but have been drawing inferences from what has been said here and there, so are you saying the research is enough to conclude that plant base does affect the effectiveness of l'ascorbic acid?

Also, what do you mean the liquid oat BGs are 99.9% unnatural? the base is water from what i remember and a small percentage of preservative and propylene glycol.

Kristen~

ETA: ok, looked at the thread references, HA seems to be the best base. Thanks for pointing that thread out (again).

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:07 am

skincareaddicted wrote:

Hi Molly,

I haven't read the research, so you're saying the research is enough to conclude that plant base does affect the effectiveness of l'ascorbic acid?

Also, what do you mean the liquid oat BGs are 99.9% unnatural? the base is water from what i remember and a small percentage of preservative and propylene glycol.

Kristen~

Oops! You're right about the liquid OBGs - my brain's gone fuzzy with the science too - it's mostly water
(The oat beta glucan purchased through the co-op and through GOW is a 1% concentration in water and contains the following preservatives: 0.26% methylparaben, 0.26% chlorphenesin in 1.48% butylene glycol and 1.48% glycerin, 0.2% potassium sorbate.) I guess I mean it's 99% L-Ascorbic friendly. I forget water's friendly too as long as it's distilled to take out the metals.

There's heaps and heaps of research showing L-Ascorbic breaks down metals and all natural products have residual metals.

When Liz says more research is needed I understand her to mean very specific research based on the kind of C-serums we might make using plant oils etc to see just how much they might reduce the efficacy in terms of anti-oxidant protection. The kind of companies who do research on C serums are not the kind who use bio derivatives. Although there is one abberration, just to confuse you further. I'll post that later. I need more caffeine.

free skin care · Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:54 am

Kristen to answer your question about the research, there is not enough research to conclude that plant based ingredients reduce the effectiveness of ascorbic acid serums. But there is also not enough research to conclude that plant based ingredients DO NOT reduce the effectiveness of these serums. The way I look at it (I think that Molly and Liz do too) is that in the absence of evidence one way or the other it is best to take a cautious approach and not use a C serums that contains plant ingredients.

The theory behind why plant ingredients might cause a problem is a reasonable one so I would not discount it by saying it is just a guess. It is based on good logic. For me what it comes down to is whether I am willing to take a chance on something like antioxidant protection and for me the answer is NO. There really is no actually signs that a C serum is performing it's antioxidant ability and therefore I have to base my faith on it's ability to do this on the C serum formula and what I know about that. If I look into this further and do find evidence that would show they cause no problems or that the theory is lacking in light of new evidence then I would readily change my mind but right now I am just not there.

Molly I really am not sure that we can make this two seperate issues of oxidation versus plant materials. The way I understand it is that the ascorbic acid reduces the metal and then the metal can goes on to start a chain reaction of oxidation. The end result is that you end up with oxidized ascorbic acid which cannot do it's work. (It effectively has done it's work to stop the chain reaction started by the redcued metals so how much is left to do the job on your skin?) However, I do think that if there is enough ascorbic acid in the solution (in relation to the amount of metals) then the chain reaction is stopped quickly without too much degradation of the ascorbic acid.

So we can say that the metals act as catalysts but then so does water. Water itself is a catalyst that speeds up the oxidization of ascorbic acid. So in the end it really is all about oxidation of the ascorbic acid. Yes there may be some odd oxidative species generated when metals are present but I am not sure that this it the major concern (someone please correct me if I am wrong on this), I think that chain reaction of oxidization that needs to be stopped by the ascorbic acid is the big concern.

Then we have to keep in mind that this is all theoretical. pH plays a big part-the higher the pH the more likely that the ascorbic acid will oxidize, metals or not. The amount of ascorbic acid also plays a big part and I haven't quite figured out exactly what percentage of ascorbic acid is required for it to act as an antioxidant vs. a proxidant. Then there is the issue of chelators. These really can help. In fact, I will have to research this some more but I recall someone mentioning on the forum ages ago that metals in plants are in a chelated form. If this is true then that makes a big difference in how we look at this.

I guess what it comes down to is how much someone is willing to take a chance on something like antioxidant protection that really is not obvious. I don't trust the apple experiment and I also don't trust that a lack of color change in the serum means it is okay to use. I quote from Dr. Todorov of smartskincare "Unfortunately, the lack of a tint does not, by itself, guarantee the lack of oxidation because the initial product of vitamin C oxidation (dehydroascorbic acid) is colorless." http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/vitc.html

free skin care · Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:18 am

Molly, i know what you mean, i log in so late sometimes and am absolutely "not there" in some of my posts.

Theresa,

Thanks for such a thorough explanation on how the 2 issues are intertwined.

It is absolutely better to be cautious, and I am gonna ask Markey or someone to make a solution of l-ascorbic acid in an HA solution serum for me when i am out of my skinceuticals and jen's aloe vera C serum. The small percentage of BG in the liquid Bg concerns me. Never thought i would say goodbye to skinceuticals though!

Knowing more makes me so paranoid.

and i am glad you decided not to leave, i need you around to dumb things down for me!

Kristen~

free skin care · Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:07 pm

Hi Kristen
Actually I log in so EARLY I don't know I'm there which is probably why we bump into each other.

Good idea about the HA serum, but I'm still wondering if there's some better 'natural' base out there because that's a bit drying.

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