company representatives on the forum
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Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:21 am

I'm glad this topic in general has come out in the open because it is obviously bugging some people. I would also first like to say that if there is anything that is bothering you on the forum and you don't want to post it publicly then you should at least feel free to PM one of the mods and discuss it. We do our best to keep everybody happy here, which is a bit challenging at certain times. However, we cannot do our job effectively if we do not know what is upsetting people.

The issue with company reps on the forum is an ongoing one and I'm sure those of you who have been members for quite some time do recall us trying to fight this. It was done publicly although a lot of the communication was PMed so most of you may not have been aware of the extent of it. The thing is that at some stage it became clear that it was better to have reps identified and out in the open especially since the forum had the potential to attract more reps given the Google ranking and since there were some "quality" reps who did have a lot more knoweldge to share (as opposed to the ones that just joined and spammed the forum). We have had many cases of companies trying to act like consumers and those cases have been dealt with - sometimes publicly, sometimes in the background. So, now, the "good" reps that play by the forum rules and do not spam with their product are here but are required to identify themselves so that it is clear that they do have a bias (and let's face it - they DO) and so that you, as a forum member, can make an informed decision about whether to take their info on board or not. I think a lot of the time the reps can provide a lot of help with the product that is being asked about in a thread and we have certainly seen reps from other companies registering solely to respond to a product question. Yes, I do agree that some reps do get very protective of their product and, while this is not a good thing (although it is a natural thing I suppose), I don't think this is something that is unique to Ian S.

There are a number of reps here and as long as they do not initiate discussions about their own products and only respond about their products when asked then I think that is fair and can be helpful. I can tell you that there have been rep posts that have been edited to remove certain content that was seen as blatant advertising and the reps were then notified of why their post was edited (or removed) and how. I would say that most, if not all, reps on this forum found themselves in this position (particularly earlier on when we were trying to grapple with the whole concept of reps on the forum). The posts that were removed were only ever ones that did not yet generate discussion (no replies) when they were found by the moderator (found either through browsing of through following up on a report about a post). On the other hand, you also have to understand that if a company rep posts something and is encouraged to post more information then the post can not be edited out seeing as forum members we trust are asking for more information about what was posted.

My apologies for the long reply, I did want to cover many issues although I'm sure I missed some points and probably made a lot of typos in the process Embarassed

I also have to clarify that the views I expressed here are my own and not necessarily those of people who are actually running EDS.

Rzecka - Laughing

I don't think there is much risk of me switching over to a skincare career. But if I ever quit what I do (which as many of you know is probably as far removed from skincare as it can be) then I'll be sure to give you the heads up! Meanwhile I'll just keep raving about the Renewing Pack, although I think I've raved about the Dr Hauschka Cleansing Cream a lot more by now Smile

free skin care · Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:32 am

Does anyone think a distributers forum may be a good idea? That way we have the best of both worlds; If anyone want's specific info or advice from a rep they can go to the JB or Epidemx thread, and reps or producers can give info without fear of rubbing up those who prefer to keep the forums we presently have as consumer only. I think it would stop the confusion between what some may think is spam and good 'from the horse's mouth' info. Such a forum could also be used by producers to get guinea pigs for new products maybe?

It would also mean that consumer/reps can keep posting where they are, as consumer reps use stuff from other ranges. I personally have no problems or issues with Winnie (for example) raving about JB products cause she'd do it anyway with out being a rep! Laughing

The other option is to bar all reps and I think that is draconian and also a waste of in depth knowledge. Maybe we could invite/vote new reps onto the board?

I MUST get on with work...remember, you ain't seen me Cool

free skin care · Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:23 am

guapagirl wrote:

Does anyone think a distributers forum may be a good idea?

I MUST get on with work...remember, you ain't seen me Cool

I think a distributor's forum is a great idea! Idea

And uh liz....we DID see you and WILL use this against you when need be. Bad Grin

-Cheri

free skin care · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:03 am

As a forum member I will try to again voice my two cents UNBIAS. Ian certainly does not have to post at all on this forum. He owns Janson-Beckett and Reviva Labs. Now, do you really think he needs to visit this forum to make a living? Personally I don't see where he finds the time to give us information or feedback. On the whole Ian's posts have been most helpful. Since he started posting he has had fifty some odd posts. Doubtfully he is going to talk about the after shave he uses.

As a forum member I don't like to see ANYONE singled out like this. Sounds like a trial to me. I would suggest that if you have a problem with a member or a rep.the upsetting post should be reported to one of the moderators. Being on the forum since June I know all three moderators act swiftly.

I work for Janson-Beckett. I have never received a PM or email requesting me to key it down. To my knowledge not one of my post have been removed or edited. As a woman I use many products. Do I love JB products, yes. Do I have to talk about them? Absolutely not. It would not bother me in the least if I was told never to mention AlphaDerma again. My position with Janson Beckett involves other avenues.

My feeling and mine alone ... this whole thread really pisses me off!

free skin care · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:30 am

Having read Winnie's post, I just want to say a couple of things...

I'm absolutely certain that Winnie has never been pm'ed. I haven't used this forum for terribly long, but in the time that I have, I have never seen any reason why anyone would even remotely have a problem with anything Winnie says. She's always thoughtful and helpful and never puts any other products down.

I also don't think that banning people people who work for various product lines (or who own them, for that matter) is necessary or useful.

It's very possible that the tone of some of Ian's posts have more to do with his personality than they do with his affiliation to JB. It's almost irrelevant. When he speaks, he speaks as JB.

When I first posted in this thread, I did it with some hesitation. I don't like witchhunts. In fact, what pissed me off and finally prompted me to speak up in the first place was that I thought that that was exactly the direction Ian was going in with his "informational" post about StriVectin etc.

Perhaps the one positive thing that will come from this is that Ian will be a little more thoughtful about his tone when he posts. I'm willing to concede that he may not even be aware of how some of his commentary comes across.

free skin care · Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:59 pm

Katee, I am sorry you felt I responded to you that way. I answer so many e-mails a day that I also have help with them. Possibly you got an answer from an employee helping me out in the course of my busy day. I never am disrespectful and never use anything but a nice tone when answering questions. Especially that one which gets asked alot. I am very passionate about the fact that when you first begin to use our products we would like you to not use anything else in combination for at least 7 to 10 days. That way you can see the benefits of our items alone and the decide if they are right for you or you should consider using your other regimen. If that comes accross with a tone it is not meant to be; it is meant to help you so you are able to clearly see what is or isnot working for you. If our items don't agree with you then you know that it is them and you can promptly return them for your refund. Sorry for any miscommunication.

All the Best
Ian Smile

katee wrote:

I don't mind at all if someone who is affiliated with a particular company boosts their product. If someone is involved with a product, regardless of the level of their involvement, I would expect that they would be pretty high on it.

Additionally, it is very often the case that they are PRECISELY the people I want to hear from when I have a question, because their knowledge and experience is most certainly going to be more extensive than what I might find in a product insert.

What I do object to, however, is someone putting down a competitor. It's completely inappropriate to this forum and, to be blunt, it pisses me off.

I had a question a month or so back about how to incorporate Prevage into my skincare regimen. The Prevage insert tells you to apply it before anything else. I was wondering if, perhaps, I shouldn't put it on after my JB AH3 Skin Prep. I also wanted to make sure that one product didn't render the other inactive (i.e. the way that vitamin C renders copper peptide ineffective). My dermatologist wasn't much help, because she isn't familiar with the JB line. I asked Ian.

My complaint was NOT in the speed of the reply. He replied promptly. His tone, however, was outrageous. It was as if I had committed a sin by even proposing to use something OTHER THAN the AH3 Skin Prep and Alpha Derm! I really was sorry that I asked.

However, although I really was annoyed by Ian's tone, it was my choice to seek his opinion. The communique was a private one. To my mind, that is ENTIRELY different than a public posting. But, I find exactly the same tone...

I understand that when someone works on developing a product, they are often passionate about it. And, I do appreciate the willingness to share information. But, I really do find some of the other stuff questionable. I was giving serious consideration to raising it myself and I'm happy that somebody else did.

free skin care · Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:45 pm

Katee, the post about strivectin was a clipping that a customer sent me. I simply mentioned it and the next thing I know forum members are asking me to post the article. If you read it carefully you will see I stated that these are not the opinions of JB or myself but a word for word copy of the article.
I would not have posted it if forum members did not ask me to. I would like to address the question of my tone; I got pissed when a forum member on a different thread came out and said that if you don't agree with her thought on collagen absorption and you beleive that collagen can be absorbed it is "B?ll Sh?t". That was offensive to me and everyone acted as if was never said. I wonder if I had used that language on here how it would have been taken, I can only imagine! So my question here is why is nothing being said to that member or the the member who asked me to post the article? Getting back to the other topic; this is a concern for the entire industry, if FTC gets what they are after it could mean trouble for all companies making anti-aging claims no matter what ingredients. I thought that by bringing this article to light it would prepare people for the big changes that could not only effect Strivectin but the whole industry. By the way while this is going on in court I assure you this topic will be all over the news and all over this forum. I guess members just didn't want to hear it from me first. I always try to help anyone who needs a skin care question answered or if I have a product that could help a person who has recently has a bad reaction to any item I send them items free to help. I always thought the way I presented myself on this forum was kind and helpful. I see now that I was WRONG and I WILL NO LONGER ANSWER ANY POSTS ON THIS FORUM as I FEEL it IS NOT WANTED. Let me just say that this is a sad statement for me as I feel very friendly to many of the members and I enjoy having discussions about skin care. I do thank those members who have helped me on the forum and posted so many kind things about myself and the company. My company of experienced and knowledgeable associates will still help as many as possible but from now on I am keeping my two cents out.

Sincerely,
Ian s Smile

katee wrote:

Having read Winnie's post, I just want to say a couple of things...

I'm absolutely certain that Winnie has never been pm'ed. I haven't used this forum for terribly long, but in the time that I have, I have never seen any reason why anyone would even remotely have a problem with anything Winnie says. She's always thoughtful and helpful and never puts any other products down.

I also don't think that banning people people who work for various product lines (or who own them, for that matter) is necessary or useful.

It's very possible that the tone of some of Ian's posts have more to do with his personality than they do with his affiliation to JB. It's almost irrelevant. When he speaks, he speaks as JB.

When I first posted in this thread, I did it with some hesitation. I don't like witchhunts. In fact, what pissed me off and finally prompted me to speak up in the first place was that I thought that that was exactly the direction Ian was going in with his "informational" post about StriVectin etc.

Perhaps the one positive thing that will come from this is that Ian will be a little more thoughtful about his tone when he posts. I'm willing to concede that he may not even be aware of how some of his commentary comes across.

free skin care · Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:41 am

I'm sorry that you feel that you can no longer post Sad

free skin care · Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:26 am

Ian, I too am sorry you feel you can no longer post. Sad

You were kind enough to reply to my questions when I asked about using my usual products along with my 5 day sample kit. (You did in fact ask me to use them alone for the 5 days and then if I decided to continue using the range to contact you again an you'd help with advising how to slot in my other HG products into the regime.
Personally I've always found you very helpful. Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:40 am

I to am very sorry you feel this way Sad

As a user of JB products I always value your advice.

free skin care · Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:33 am

Ian....

Thank you for responding! I really hope you continue to post on the board. My criticism was made reluctantly and, I would have never taken the time to post what I did if I didn't think you were an honest and well-intentioned individual. I think the fact that you took the time to respond in the way you did just reaffirms that.

By the way - NO WAY do I want to return my products. I love the line and love the results I'm getting. I've been raving about it to all my friends - especially when they compliment me on healthy my skin is looking of late.

Regards -

Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:01 am

I think it is very unfortunate that this thread discussed the issue of reps on the forum by focussing on a specific one. Tomorrow we can have the same issue with someone else. Ian was asked to post the article that he posted so this is really a non-issue in this case and, just for the record, nobody has asked Ian (as far as I am aware) to stop contributing to this forum.

To summarise this topic, for I would not like to see it go on and on for ever with similar cases in the future, as long as reps (i) identify themselves as having an interest in a product whenever they post about it, (ii) do not spam the forum, and (iii) do not initiate new topics or replies about their products without there first being an interest in those products, then things are fine. If you would like to give the reps (or the mods) feedback on the content or tone of the reps' posts then that of course is also welcome and I'm sure it's a much better and more constructive thing to do in private rather than on a public forum.

If this does bother someone or they feel that a certain post does not fit in here then they should bring this matter to the attention of a moderator. You are ALWAYS welcome to PM one of the mods to discuss forum issues and you are welcome to use the Report feature when you feel it is necessary.

If anybody has anything further to add to this particular thread then please feel free to PM me about it. Thank you in advance.

Mabsy

free skin care · Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:31 am

so my idea of a forum (or even a sticky thread for reps) doesn't have any support apart from phredd? I thought it was a good way to keep the expertise of reps like Ian (sorry winnie, I'm not singling Ian out here, there are others such as sassy and judy who are reps, just that Ian has been a bit more, shall we say, visible? Smile

).

I personally think it would be a pity if reps feel they can't post on the forums about their products, particularly if it is in response to requests from other members, and for reps and consumers to feel they can't post would be a crying shame, given their experience of using the line they represent, combined with other lines (I mean, honestly, who really only uses ONE brand for everything? We wouldn't be skincare junkies if we did that Laughing

).

So how about a separate forum or a brand sticky ? Smile

free skin care · Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:46 am

guapagirl wrote:

so my idea of a forum (or even a sticky thread for reps) doesn't have any support apart from phredd?

Psssst, Guapagirl! I'm over here hiding in the corner. I thought it was a good idea but didn't post before as I was trying to keep out of this thread and all the accusations flying about. Anxious

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