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free skin care · Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:45 pm

Margarette, those are FE techniques... So, YES, I'm quite sure she is doing that!!!

free skin care · Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:52 pm

ClaudiaFE wrote:

Margarette, those are FE techniques... So, YES, I'm quite sure she is doing that!!!

Double wow!
Very inspiring.

free skin care · Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:52 pm

margarett wrote:

Those nasolabial look amazing now at 50 something. I saw her pictures at the FE forum, but I think she also uses a technique putting her fingers inside her mouth and drawing them down with her finger and then sucking or something like that.

Actually this exercise of placing your finger inside the mouth to grab and pull the muscles and then exercise the cheek muscles was actually around well before FE. A book written by Senta Maria Runge has this exercise in it and she explains in very good detail. Her book Face Lifting by Exercises has been around for over 40 years and has several updated editions over the past 40 years.

free skin care · Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:03 pm

lisacollins00 wrote:

margarett wrote:

Those nasolabial look amazing now at 50 something. I saw her pictures at the FE forum, but I think she also uses a technique putting her fingers inside her mouth and drawing them down with her finger and then sucking or something like that.

Actually this exercise of placing your finger inside the mouth to grab and pull the muscles and then exercise the cheek muscles was actually around well before FE. A book written by Senta Maria Runge has this exercise in it and she explains in very good detail. Her book Face Lifting by Exercises has been around for over 40 years and has several updated editions over the past 40 years.

Thank you for the tip, Lisa. I will look into that.

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:29 am

lisacollins00 wrote:

margarett wrote:

Those nasolabial look amazing now at 50 something. I saw her pictures at the FE forum, but I think she also uses a technique putting her fingers inside her mouth and drawing them down with her finger and then sucking or something like that.

Actually this exercise of placing your finger inside the mouth to grab and pull the muscles and then exercise the cheek muscles was actually around well before FE. A book written by Senta Maria Runge has this exercise in it and she explains in very good detail. Her book Face Lifting by Exercises has been around for over 40 years and has several updated editions over the past 40 years.

You know I thought the same, but there are some big differences. Here's a post I did a while ago to someone in the know which I'm putting here for discussion purposes only (I haven't checked with the poster so am going to keep him unnamed):

-------------------------------------

I got a lovely pink (my favourite colour) book by Santa Marie Runge who wrote the first book on facial exercises, and I'm noticing there are several exercises which look to me that FE have copied. What say you?

Hi Theresa

Yes I know the book, and its probably one of the first major books that went into print, but facial exercises date way back to ancient Egypt (so its been around for centuries). When it comes to exercising the facial muscles, many methods look similar but there is a huge difference in them.

For one Santa Maria has you go up in small stages, I think its ten. Her argument or reason for this is that she believed it allowed you to work the muscle more intensely whereas in FE we just go to straight maximum contraction. We do this simply because it has a bigger impact on the face (and the brain registers it kind of as top priority because your utilising and working a greater number of muscle fibres), but if someone wanted to experiment with going up in stages, there wouldn't be any harm, it just would be a longer workout. My only issue with going up in stages is both timing, and also I think the body goes the path of least resistance, so often your find that the stronger muscle fibres are doing all the work, and the weaker ones kind of slack off a little - whereas if you go to maximum contraction at one hitting your muscles have to utilise everything (particularly if your using resistance).

Secondly she doesn't advocate you exercising the muscles very regularly, and actually from memory used to suggest you work them for 3-4 months, and then have a month off from all exercises. Her exercises also are not focused on building muscle, but maintaining tone (which in itself is a goal that will suit many people).

There is also a lot of myths in her book which are entertaining, like cleansing with a cream, and only in upward directions. She's not a fan of handling the facial tissue much (so it would be interesting if she was still around to get her take on things like massage and Tanaka).

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:58 am

Sorry re double posting. I clicked on send twice by accident and only just realised. BTW its obvious who the person who messaged me is so dont get me into trouble asking him about his PM to me.

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:58 am

TheresaMary wrote:

Sorry re double posting. I clicked on send twice by accident and only just realised. BTW its obvious who the person who messaged me is so dont get me into trouble asking him about his PM to me.

Was this from one of the FE trainers?

The wording sounds like a person who posts a lot on different boards on behalf of FE.

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:11 am

LOL well he'll probably be annoyed but it was Sean from FE. Does kinda make sense in some ways but I think its a bit like you say tomato, I say tomatoe!

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:05 am

Copied from http://library.thinkquest.org/C004203/science/science02.htm

************************************************

2. Invention of the Wheel

Up till now, it is still a mystery as to who invented the wheel and when the wheel was invented. According to archaeologists, it was probably invented in around 8,000 B.C. in Asia. The oldest wheel known however, was discovered in Mesopotamia and probably dates back to 3,500 B.C
*********************************************

The pictures in the web link attached look nothing like I've got on my Honda...

Here's the deal: It's been a long while since I've even had a look at Santa Marie Runge.

Yes, she does an exercise or 2 with her fingers in her mouth. They are NOT the same as ours. I will do a write up in a few weeks when I get some time to really lay it out. This question comes up from time to time. Actually it comes up more often now a days that you have google at your finger tips. And you can easily come up with some 50 facial exercise programs.

Something Deb did NOT have when she developed her own program back in '79. It was not copied. Or even tweaked for that matter. Deb had no knowledge of this program until the 1980 book was brought to her attention AFTER she had already launched FlexEffect on a local basis.

However, I'm not very surprised at all that anyone with any common sence and comprehension of the facial structures (that pretty much haven't changed since primal man) came up with similar exercises.

Seriously? Joseph Pilates (creates workout derived from Gymnastics, boxing etc...) We now have Winsor Pilates, The Method Pilates, Yogalates. I have DVD's from a handful of these. They are part of my workouts that I do for myself. The point is?????

Can you come up with multiple ways to engage a bicep muscle, and increase it's size without doing a curl? Sure rotate your wrist this way and that. But WHO INVENTED the bicep curl. But you'll see Weider, and Schwarzenegger as some of the "founding fathers"... But most certainly NOT the creators of said movements... In my world, I guess that would be GOD.

I can remember my DH coming home from one of his first days at culinary school, when a teacher explained: "There is NOTHING you will make, or create that has not already been done before...NOTHING!" And boy did they try. Then the teacher would pull out some old cookbook from the day of the printing press, and show them... yeah... you're not THAT creative. But that stretching and reaching makes for some amazing chefs worldwide... and my DH happens to work on the same street as some of the most famous in the US! So go figure.

Not really sure what the hair splitting is about. Or the need to jump in and point out that Santa Maria Runge did this 40 years ago. Although, at the same time I would love a more engaging history lesson on it. As I just grew up in this world, and really haven't studied the history that much. This would actually make for an even more interesting discussion as HOW IN THE WORLD could facial exercises be around as far back as Cleopatra, and STILL some of today's doctors say it's a bad move???

In the end, I'm PRETTY SURE the immediate topic is about Lala and what she does... and it was brought up that she does an exercise with her fingers in her mouth... And yes, she does... IN PARTICULAR she does the one designed by FlexEffect... I was not off topic pointing this out.

She also has an AWESOME diet. She does not take the usage of chemicals lightly. That goes for all the topicals that might be mixed with some sort of crap. She exercises daily...Good Lord the woman just spent the last year building a GREEN house, that deserves being highlighted in SOME tv show or magazine.

I was just watching a GREAT video on preventing cancer (I'll start another thread with it... it's amazing!), and the Dr. made one HUGE point that was soooooo intuitively obvious but so often ignored.

When you have cancer, and go at with western medicine, you usually end up with surgery to remove the cancer, Chemo to kill anything left, radiation to go after just a little bit more, and my God often a slew of pills to swallow. You don't say, we'll do this ONE thing and hopefully it will go away...

You utilize the synergistic effects of an arsenal... GO FOR IT!

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:42 pm

I did not read your entire post, Claudia and I am not very familiar with facial exercises books, although I have owned and purchased 3 of them: Ageless, Maggio and FE. I don't remember if they quote, cite, or make reference to their sources, and I'm sorry if they actually do.
Anyway, it amazes me that if anyone who is serious and is writing a book about "x" and doing
deep research, with scientific knowledge, etc., is not bringing up their sources and works of reference, that would make any program even more serious and more professional.

As for the lady who wrote one of the first books on facial exercises, Mrs. Sante Maria Runge... she should be quoted, used as reference, and give the credits to her pioneer work as being one of the first ones who put this practice onto paper!!! and not ridiculed for something she wrote more than 50 years ago.

Just my two cents.

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:39 pm

HI Margarette,

I think I'm confused now.

Do you think I'm ridiculing Santa Maria Runge?

Could you clarify for me what lead you to that?

My point was and is: Deb of FE had NEVER seen SMR's book prior to her own creation of her own FE program.

It is a coincidence that any exercises are even remotely similar. (And you actually should know that since you say you own FE, and you've probably read how Deb came about creating her program.)

However, it's not surprising, if you wanted to work a certain facial muscle. You really only have so many options.

I have no idea if Ageless or CM utilize any theory or quote from SMR. But we don't quote anything from SMR because we did not use it as a source. My suggestion is that you might consider FE a reinvention of the wheel, when you realize that facial exercises go WAYYYYYY back... further than SMR. But, IN OUR opinion... a better wheel when you compare in the end... That's of course an opinion. Others like other wheels... And well some wheels are just better on different cars...

Hope that makes sense. So, I guess I agree with your 2 cents. Just not sure how it applies to my last response... Wink

How is it, that someone wanted to share someone's excitement about their results (in a very appropriate thread), and when someone asks about it... answering the question becomes grounds for sling rocks, YET AGAIN...

Are we just having miscommunications here (as if my posts could get ANY longer), or is there just a personal problem that someone would like to share?

Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:49 pm

I think Deb does mention that she researched other face programs and developed her own routine by "piecing together all the material I found..." - p. 6 Flexeffect 2nd edition.

she further mentions on that same page that she basically went through all the books that were out there at the time.(here i am paraphrasing what is written on p.6 )

so she, in a way, does credit her predecessors...

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:49 pm

ClaudiaFE wrote:

HI Margarette,

I think I'm confused now.

Do you think I'm ridiculing Santa Maria Runge?

Could you clarify for me what lead you to that?

My point was and is: Deb of FE had NEVER seen SMR's book prior to her own creation of her own FE program.

It is a coincidence that any exercises are even remotely similar. (And you actually should know that since you say you own FE, and you've probably read how Deb came about creating her program.)

However, it's not surprising, if you wanted to work a certain facial muscle. You really only have so many options.

I have no idea if Ageless or CM utilize any theory or quote from SMR. But we don't quote anything from SMR because we did not use it as a source. My suggestion is that you might consider FE a reinvention of the wheel, when you realize that facial exercises go WAYYYYYY back... further than SMR. But, IN OUR opinion... a better wheel when you compare in the end... That's of course an opinion. Others like other wheels... And well some wheels are just better on different cars...

Hope that makes sense. So, I guess I agree with your 2 cents. Just not sure how it applies to my last response... Wink

How is it, that someone wanted to share someone's excitement about their results (in a very appropriate thread), and when someone asks about it... answering the question becomes grounds for sling rocks, YET AGAIN...

Are we just having miscommunications here (as if my posts could get ANY longer), or is there just a personal problem that someone would like to share?

I am sorry, Claudia; no, you are not ridiculing Sante Maria Runge. I'm referring to this comment in a previous post referring to her book:

Quote:

There is also a lot of myths in her book which are entertaining, like cleansing with a cream, and only in upward directions. She's not a fan of handling the facial tissue much (so it would be interesting if she was still around to get her take on things like massage and Tanaka).

Anyway, anybody who is writing a book, material, manual, etc., SHOULD profoundly investigate about anything that has been written about their subject and even more when they are recommending something like facial exercises, which are not very popular, and dermatologists, beauticians, etc. do not recommend sometimes, so that their possible clients have some trust on their programme, don't you think?

I am not putting the finger on FE, I am talking in general. I really doubt that they did not do some kind of research on previous publications on any kind on facial exercises and if they did not, that to me, is not very professional, and if they did and modify something without acknowledging in their books, that even more unprofessional.

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:15 pm

Thanks Margarett... It must be this dang head cold... I wasn't following, and got too emotional. Embarassed

I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to ridicule... I may not agree with certain theories, but I know people put a lot of effort into their work. I'm willing, when asked, why I don't care for a certain idea. But that's not to bash someone. Just to explain where I'm coming from.

Yeah, people should at least give the story where they are coming from and how they got there but they rarely do. Deb tells at the beginning of her book about meeting a woman that did some form of facial exercise. Although I have NO evidence, I wouldn't be surprised if THAT woman was doing SMR. (who btw... was so pretty, I wish we could see more photos of her, and in her later years. I wonder what her daughter, who now owns her books, and has done the last several publications looks like??) It is more common with the more recent programs to hear that a person spent 1000's researching all the books, and they've put together their own routine... like a great big cut and paste project.

We've been out and out plagiarized (not even reworded) so many times it's mind boggling. And although we could fight that sort of thing up one side and down the other... the scariest part it often our materials are presented in a very scary fashion. That's my only concern.

But back on topic... with regard to hands in the mouth... We have (I just counted) some 20 exercises that utilize your hands in your mouth. Some are variation of exercises you can do hands outside the mouth. (some people get really grossed out with hands in mouth... I'm just about CLEAN hands in mouth!)... And really, once a person gets the hang of their face and response, I really feel that you should work your program to your individual needs.

Again, with regards to lala... the idea to take away from her amazing results, IMO, is diet, lifestyle, dedication, and have an inquiring mind. If you need help, ask for it... get your pictures evaluated. Exchange ideas until you resonate, and FEEL the difference. That's what Lala did. (granted with our program...) But she's really owned her journey so to speak... you know???

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:29 pm

ClaudiaFE wrote:

I was just watching a GREAT video on preventing cancer (I'll start another thread with it... it's amazing!), and the Dr. made one HUGE point that was soooooo intuitively obvious but so often ignored.

When you have cancer, and go at with western medicine, you usually end up with surgery to remove the cancer, Chemo to kill anything left, radiation to go after just a little bit more, and my God often a slew of pills to swallow. You don't say, we'll do this ONE thing and hopefully it will go away...

You utilize the synergistic effects of an arsenal... GO FOR IT!

Claudia, sorry, way off topic (I personally use a mixture of different exercises -Saint Marie Runge, Flexeffect, Ageless, Eva Fraser,..., anyhow I own various programmes, customized and so on so good)... interested in knowing about this ONE thing for Cancer, so please, please share... I think THIS is more important. If it is necessary for you to open another thread do so, or please PM me, whether you open another thread to show me the way or just for the info (it may be some info I already know about but it may not, so I would like to know.)
TIA.

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:55 pm

Claudia, just checking out the FE forum and I see you've posted the info there, very interesting... it may not be a thread to follow here but it certainly would be interesting to share.

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:14 pm

Hi Atester... I started another thread. I found it so interesting I thought you all might too!

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=38719&highlight=

And regarding mixing and matching... I think once a person has a good understanding of their face (in the same way with their body), that's totally fine. When it comes to me personally training a NEWBIE, I like them to stick with my program. So, I can help them. Otherwise, they often get into hot water, and I'm struggling trying to figure out what's up...It's like a gymnast taking ballet. So many body postures perfectly fine for gymnastics, and utterly horrifying for ballet... neither goal wrong.

Happy... I didn't see your post... You're RIGHT!

Page 6 2nd edition... Bolding a few words for emphasis...

**************************************
..."In my search, I discovered several facial training programs. All of the exercises were pretty much the same and guaranteed the same results but I couldn't help wondering if their claims were true, why wasn't everybody doing them? My skepticism could have got the best of me had it not been for that woman's face looking so incredibly younger than her years.

Piecing together all the material I found, I began an extensive, time consuming, facial training regime. Looking back, the routine was a bit over kill but I wanted proof in short order. Within a couple of months I had all the proof I needed. The training proved more than sufficient to help with the loss of tone. My skin took on a childlike fresh look that I wasn't even aware I had lost. Being so impressed with the quick and apparent results of 'isometrics' I created and designed a program not only for myself but for my dance students as well.

A few years later, and still teaching Facial Isometrics, I became interested in weightlifting and soon after stepped into competitive bodybuilding. This move called for a marked reduction in body fat. Consequently,this loss of fat had an aging effect on my face. As a Facial Trainer this was not an acceptable trade-off! I had no intention of giving up bodybuilding, but I was determined to remedy my dilemma. On a hunch that resistance training could add fullness to my face in the same way it did for my body, I decided to convert each Isometric exercise into Resistance exercise"....
*****************************************

So, YES, she did have references when she started at the very beginning. I have no idea what they all were. I asked her specifically about SMR and she said it wasn't until AFTER she started training the public outside of her dance troupe that she was introduced to SMR...

Again, keep in mind Deb was very small time when she started back in 1970's. Her first book came out YEARS after she started teaching people. In fact it was her VHS that was out before the book even. People just wanted to take home a quick example from her personal classes. I'm sure by then, when she actually got down to writing, which seems it was during my time in college ( '89-94, as she would harass the hell out me to save documents the computer was so daunting to her.), many of her original references were long gone. She never intended this to be a career. Funny how that worked out!

Regardless, as you can see in her last sentence... it was taking the knowledge of what was ONLY being done at the time, isometric training of sorts (the facial training programs of the that time STILL catered to careful skin handling... which is SOOOOO NOT FE), and turning them into something completely different. RESISTANCE training. Something truly all her own. That no one offered.

In fact, that I'm aware of LL's Ageless is the only other program that works with any sort of resistance... and CM often refers to resistance for a few exercises, when she really means leverage. And NO ONE stretches the skin like we do... they usually brag about that...so look for updates in many of the newer programs... Wink

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:01 pm

Very pleased you opened a new thread!
And very pleased with Deb's exercises too!
I still have to take a look at the 3rd edition forum!
The cross-stretching feels good!

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:10 pm

I agree NO One stretches the skin like Deb. She made me laugh on the CD when she said for many it was going to be a "Leap of Faith". She sure is right. (Not for me though - I'm totally into Deb!)

free skin care · Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:30 pm

You know, while I'm here, I'll take a moment to mention a few things regarding cross stretching.

IT IS NOT an everyday practice. This is the one thing I've learned in our workshop. Many people miss Deb saying that on the DVD and haven't bothered reading the book. Embarassed

There needs to be downtime for healing. That is the ENTIRE premise. If you skip that... you lose out! You need to think of it as you would heavy lifting. You don't lift heavy every day... it will wipe you out, and fatigue the muscles, AND you'll break down instead of build up...

Additionally, I'm FLOORED how many e-mails and PM's I'm getting from long term flexers who are getting even MORE results from the cross stretching and jolting. Deb and I have been practicing this for so long now, that I forgot what a big diff it made for us. When I'm having crazy busy days, or I'm sick as dog like I am right now and I don't want to spend more than 5 minutes doing anything. Like washing my face is a big drama right now... I can run through a quick jolt and Xstretch, with some massage, and know that I'm ok...

Oh... and for that matter. I'm hearing some exciting things from people who have taken a long facial exercise break. They are getting even better results starting up after their break. Which isn't really that surprising. I hear this often in all sports arenas. I remember as a kid always feeling REALLY strong and ready to go after Christmas & summer breaks for dance. I have some hypothesis on that... I'll share later!

free skin care · Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:29 am

Margarett - Oophs thats my fault.... and I don't think he meant it in a ridiculing way, but was using my own words to emphasise a point I had previously made in a PM to him.

Yikes I suppose thats why they kind of don't like you sharing PM's as its open to misintrepretation, but the cleansing upward thing is something I think I wrote about on here some time ago and many people said they had been told the same thing (but luckily EDS'ers filled me in that it was merely a myth as its got no real science proof behind it and I must confess I've had great results cleansing in circular motions etc not just upwards) so I was saying it was one of the all time beauty myths on here somewhere and in my PMs to Sean, so he's kind of joking with me, but I don't believe he intended to ridicule SM just making lighthearted banter. Also I suppose that I shouldn't have posted the PM without my original postings, as its probably not his full and proper review of the program (and this will probably get me into trouble now) but live and learn!!!

margarett wrote:

I am sorry, Claudia; no, you are not ridiculing Sante Maria Runge. I'm referring to this comment in a previous post referring to her book:

Quote:

There is also a lot of myths in her book which are entertaining, like cleansing with a cream, and only in upward directions. She's not a fan of handling the facial tissue much (so it would be interesting if she was still around to get her take on things like massage and Tanaka).

Anyway, anybody who is writing a book, material, manual, etc., SHOULD profoundly investigate about anything that has been written about their subject and even more when they are recommending something like facial exercises, which are not very popular, and dermatologists, beauticians, etc. do not recommend sometimes, so that their possible clients have some trust on their programme, don't you think?

I am not putting the finger on FE, I am talking in general. I really doubt that they did not do some kind of research on previous publications on any kind on facial exercises and if they did not, that to me, is not very professional, and if they did and modify something without acknowledging in their books, that even more unprofessional.

free skin care · Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:32 am

Also from when I spoke to her on the telephone and did my order, she raised a point that I hadn't considered and that was when she began there was no internet, and I think she lives in a small town with only one bookshop (Claudia is that right or is my memory playing tricks on me) so you can imagine she would no where near have had access to the information we do today!

happygolucky wrote:

I think Deb does mention that she researched other face programs and developed her own routine by "piecing together all the material I found..." - p. 6 Flexeffect 2nd edition.

she further mentions on that same page that she basically went through all the books that were out there at the time.(here i am paraphrasing what is written on p.6 )

so she, in a way, does credit her predecessors...

free skin care · Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:31 am

I doubt I'd know about any facial exercise programs without the advantage of the internet. It's a bigger invention than the wheel Smile

free skin care · Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:09 am

I was on a hunt for The Wrinkle Book, Or, How to Keep Looking Young by Elinor Glyn for a while and eventually after I had been patiently searching for it for many months I was able to buy it. This is an excellent book published in 1920s, and describes resistance based facial exercises. Exercises from other programs resemble the ones from The Wrinkle Book. I have not read exercise book by Sante Maria Runge, but chances are that her exercises would resemble Elinor Glyn exercises from The Wrinkle Book. The list might go on and on….

My point is that FE is an excellent program, and it offers so much that can be only deeply appreciated. I believe that Deb came up with FE mostly on her own, as she wrote about it in her book. This could be argued one way or another, but why get into debate?.... Lets focus on what FE has to offer, its vast content, and how we can benefit from it. I have multiple facial exercise programs, and got something useful from many of them even when I can get one tip from a program, it is a contribution. FE is hands down the most comprehensive, well organized, offering a variety of approaches to tackle facial issues. Smile

free skin care · Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:09 am

Wow... MPstat... thanks... I'll have to be on the hunt for that one!!!

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