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Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:40 pm  |
 
@Deb Crowley - unless you post sources from the AMA, FDA, CDC, American Cancer Society or otherwise, you will be told you are posting "scaremongering" information. @Lacy doesn't understand about government protecting their preverbial A** like the info I posted about neighborhoods being decimated by cancer... It's all good ~ WE KNOW. |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:46 pm |
Y'know, after reading this thread I'm getting a little anxiety-stricken. I just can't imagine how any of us made it through the the last five decades of the Boomer sexual revolution without getting cervical cancer, without the all-fired medical miracle that is the Gardisil vaccine.  |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:46 pm |
I've very happy to see they are doing this! AWESOME! |
_________________
Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:41 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
| Y'know, after reading this thread I'm getting a little anxiety-stricken. I just can't imagine how any of us made it through the the last five decades of the Boomer sexual revolution without getting cervical cancer, without the all-fired medical miracle that is the Gardisil vaccine. |
Allot of us thought the same about the AIDS virus - do you think they should stop searching for a cure for that - simply because many of us were lucky enough not to contract it? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:45 pm |
| aprile wrote: |
@Deb Crowley - unless you post sources from the AMA, FDA, CDC, American Cancer Society or otherwise, you will be told you are posting "scaremongering" information. @Lacy doesn't understand about government protecting their preverbial A** like the info I posted about neighborhoods being decimated by cancer... It's all good ~ WE KNOW. |
But Aprile you are scared. You're scared of your government, you're scared of your medical profession, you're scared of your food, you're scared of your water, you're scared of the neighbourhood in which you live. Personally, I'd hate to live like that. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:51 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Yubs wrote: |
| Y'know, after reading this thread I'm getting a little anxiety-stricken. I just can't imagine how any of us made it through the the last five decades of the Boomer sexual revolution without getting cervical cancer, without the all-fired medical miracle that is the Gardisil vaccine. |
Allot of us thought the same about the AIDS virus - do you think they should stop searching for a cure for that - simply because many of us were lucky enough not to contract it? |
Keliu, not quite sure what you're getting at here. You seem to be conflating apples and oranges again.
So far the evidence points to the fact that the Gardisil vaccine is of questionable efficacy at best.
True, it's part of the "hunt for a cure", and sure it may be a stepping stone to finding a cure, but at what expense? The way they have marketed it is deceptive and potentially dangerous, especially to children (!!) who can get it without their parent's consent(!!). It's basically a long-term, cost-free (for the company and the goverment, at least) experiment. We won't know the true long-term effects of the Gardisil for many, many years down the road.
As far as AIDS...don't even try to impose what you think my feelings may be about curing that, or EVEN equate a search for a cure for AIDS with such a lame product as Gardisil. Just try real hard to reign it in and not to have the temerity to go there. Please.
A cure gets rid of a disease once it starts. A good vaccine prevents the majority of occurrences of it. What I know about the Gardisil vaccine right now, it does NEITHER of those things.
But really, not gonna get drawn into this "copy-n-paste" argument, as bethany so succinctly put it. Nobody's mind is going to be changed. Kinda sorry now I posted that comment, truth be told. Probably be sorry for this one, too, but oh well. Hopefully it will be my last in this thread. |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:05 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Yubs wrote: |
| Y'know, after reading this thread I'm getting a little anxiety-stricken. I just can't imagine how any of us made it through the the last five decades of the Boomer sexual revolution without getting cervical cancer, without the all-fired medical miracle that is the Gardisil vaccine. |
Allot of us thought the same about the AIDS virus - do you think they should stop searching for a cure for that - simply because many of us were lucky enough not to contract it? |
Keliu, not quite sure what you're getting at here. You seem to be conflating apples and oranges again.
So far the evidence points to the fact that the Gardisil vaccine is of questionable efficacy at best.
True, it's part of the "hunt for a cure", and sure it may be a stepping stone to finding a cure, but at what expense? The way they have marketed it is deceptive and potentially dangerous, especially to children (!!) who can get it without their parent's consent(!!). It's basically a long-term, cost-free (for the company and the goverment, at least) experiment. We won't know the true long-term effects of the Gardisil for many, many years down the road.
As far as AIDS...don't even try to impose what you think my feelings may be about curing that, or EVEN equate a search for a cure for AIDS with such a lame product as Gardisil. Just try real hard to reign it in and not to have the temerity to go there. Please.
A cure gets rid of a disease once it starts. A good vaccine prevents the majority of occurrences of it. What I know about the Gardisil vaccine right now, it does NEITHER of those things.
But really, not gonna get drawn into this "copy-n-paste" argument, as bethany so succinctly put it. Nobody's mind is going to be changed. Kinda sorry now I posted that comment, truth be told. Probably be sorry for this one, too, but oh well. Hopefully it will be my last in this thread. |
Your comment, along with laughing faces, indicated that you thought it was a "miracle" that any of us made it through the sexual revolution without Gardisil - I'm saying that you can say the same that we made it through without a vaccine for AIDS. There is a parallel.
As for AIDS, as I've related a number of times here - my sister is a professor of immunology and was responsible for finding a way of stopping the AIDS virus in pregnant women from being transferred to their babies. Pretty important IMO. As for the argument against Gardisil, much of it has been shown to be totally incorrect. And we certainly can't take on board the opinions of Catholic Anti-Abortion groups - they don't even approve of the use of condoms.
As for the "cut and paste" backlash. Just about all of the information provided on this forum is cut and pasted from somewhere - hopefully a reliable source but, often, not. Do you want people to revert to the traditional method of bibliography - namely siting the volumes, editions, page numbers and authors of books? One of the wonderful things about the internet is that we can link information which can be read immediately. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:14 pm |
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
I've very happy to see they are doing this! AWESOME! |
I didnt read the article,but i am sure they will begin to sanitize the water with silver particles just like the water filters you get from pharmacy
o with any other poisonts that fits into this pupose.
That means heavy metal poisoning. |
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:20 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Yubs wrote: |
| Y'know, after reading this thread I'm getting a little anxiety-stricken. I just can't imagine how any of us made it through the the last five decades of the Boomer sexual revolution without getting cervical cancer, without the all-fired medical miracle that is the Gardisil vaccine. |
Allot of us thought the same about the AIDS virus - do you think they should stop searching for a cure for that - simply because many of us were lucky enough not to contract it? |
HIV comes from the aluminum paticles that they
are spraying in the air from 1948 (hitler experiment-world wars was an experiment of methods of depopulation). |
_________________
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:28 pm |
Keliu, as far as AIDS...I lost a few friends to it. Good men. Fun men, who liked to make facetious jabs at lots of things. Glad at least one of your connections to the AIDS virus was on the positive side. None of mine have been.
My Gardisil comment was a facetious jab at what the literature shows is the actual efficacy of Gardisil at this time. Like the chicken pox vaccine, it really isn't worth much. You take the literature how you want to take it. I'll take it my way.
But really, why does everything have to be so *ponderous*? I make a lighthearted remark and you basically imply I'm dissing the search for a cure for AIDS and possibly other diseases. If we can't laugh a little on the forum, what's the point?
As far as cut-n-paste...it frequently substitutes for original thought. It get old when there's page after page of it. That's all.
So much for "reining it in" or my last post in this thread... |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:46 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
Keliu, as far as AIDS...I lost a few friends to it. Good men. Fun men, who liked to make facetious jabs at lots of things. Glad at least one of your connections to the AIDS virus was on the positive side. None of mine have been.
My Gardisil comment was a facetious jab at what the literature shows is the actual efficacy of Gardisil at this time. Like the chicken pox vaccine, it really isn't worth much. You take the literature how you want to take it. I'll take it my way.
But really, why does everything have to be so *ponderous*? I make a lighthearted remark and you basically imply I'm dissing the search for a cure for AIDS and possibly other diseases. If we can't laugh a little on the forum, what's the point?
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We all know someone who has been affected by the AIDS virus. My sister worked on the AIDS team at the New York Blood Bank - she has probably witnessed the devastation it causes more than most. Unfortunately, the research was disbanded during the Bush era through lack of government funding.
I saw your remark against Gardisil to mean "why bother with it, it's not needed and not effective" - I just happen to disagree with that stance.
As for my lack of humour lately - I'd have to agree. I used to be known around here for my wicked wit. Unfortunately, there's been no evidence of that for some time now. All the negativity is too depressing - but when much of the negativity and even the positivity is based on mis-information and downright nonsense, it gets very tiring. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:40 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| when much of the negativity and even the positivity is based on mis-information and downright nonsense, it gets very tiring. |
I agree that the negativity is depressing. But then we have to ask ourselves what we're doing to contribute to it? Why not just agree to disagree?
Of course there are some things that are absolutely black/white, right/wrong (for example, I think *everyone* on this forum can probably agree that child molestation or female genital mutilation is wrong, no matter what the "cultural context")...but health and the way science is frequently conducted and entwined with big corpa/big government is not one of them.
So why not just let others believe what they believe and take some of the stress out of it? Hard, I know, but nobody's changing anyone's mind about these topics, and everyone's just getting stressed and little dislikes are forming. Bad juju. |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:07 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
So why not just let others believe what they believe and take some of the stress out of it? Hard, I know, but nobody's changing anyone's mind about these topics, and everyone's just getting stressed and little dislikes are forming. Bad juju. |
It is not just the posters who read any particular thread. There is a much wider audience and I don't like to see people being misinformed. For example, Panoslydios has just stated that HIV is caused by a 1948 experiment carried out by Hitler. This is nonsense. Do you want some young person to read this thread and believe that?
I know you've had difficulty with me in the past for not respecting other people's opinions. But when those opinions are wrong, have been proven wrong by science or by authoritative bodies who have research to back them up, I will continue to state my case. And if bad juju comes my way - well that's just from ignorance. I've never met an academic or intelligent person that doesn't like to argue the fat. Heaven help us all if we are expected to remain quiet out of politeness.
And to get back to the original topic. Cancer is no longer a death sentence in our society. Many, many people have the treatment and go on to lead cancer free lives. I would hate anyone who had just been diagnosed with the disease to read what has been written here and decide against treatment and to become fearful of their doctors. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:34 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Yubs wrote: |
So why not just let others believe what they believe and take some of the stress out of it? Hard, I know, but nobody's changing anyone's mind about these topics, and everyone's just getting stressed and little dislikes are forming. Bad juju. |
It is not just the posters who read any particular thread. There is a much wider audience and I don't like to see people being misinformed. For example, Panoslydios has just stated that HIV is caused by a 1948 experiment carried out by Hitler. This is nonsense. Do you want some young person to read this thread and believe that?
I know you've had difficulty with me in the past for not respecting other people's opinions. But when those opinions are wrong, have been proven wrong by science or by authoritative bodies who have research to back them up, I will continue to state my case. |
Okay, Keliu. I guess it doesn't occur to you that we who hold opposing views are not "misinformed". We are what *you* consider misinformed, but just because you believe it so does not make it so.
As far as people believing what panos says and you being the self-appointed arbiter of right and wrong viewpoints on the forum...I give credit to people for being much smarter than you apparently do, and think most of them will see through panos (or me or you) and find their own way into the correct belief. Therefore it's mostly pretty easy to ignore panos' posts. And if they don't see through panos...well, there's not much you or anyone can do for them, anyway.
But this just occurred to me as I was typing the above...do you think most people are not as smart as you, Keliu? Is that what the problem is, why you can't stand to see people "misinformed" (i.e., accepting viewpoints other than the ones you hold)? Do you think those of us who believe some things differently than you are...well, just a little dumber than you?
If so, please rethink that. For most of us here on the forum I can assure you it is NOT the case.
If not...then please think about why it's so important to you that everyone believe the current state of science is the absolutely correct one, and that we as a species are at the limits of what can be known. Your stress level over these topics might benefit if you could figure out why that degree of control over the thoughts of others is important.
For myself, I just don't want to see alternative viewpoints overshouted. When threads descend into negativity they get pulled and edited and some info gets lost.
I'd also enjoy seeing some wicked wit occasionally in threads like these instead of always with the stressful negativity. 
Edited after Keliu's original post was edited:
FYI, I have a foot in both camps when it comes to cancer. My father died of Stage IV lung cancer, greatly exacerbated by a strong, quasi-experimental chemo drug that the doctor had no business administering to a man in my father's weakened state. I firmly believe that he would have lived at least several months longer had he not been administered this drug. He was dead within three weeks of administration, and he had been doing pretty well before that.
However, before the "death drug" (what I have come to call it), my father also benefited greatly from an older, less toxic, and more established chemo protocol. The older protocol shrunk his tumors, and most importantly, took him out of the pain he was in because the cancer had migrated from his lungs into his spine. He had suffered greatly from back pain that was truly mitigated by the older protocol.
So yeah, chemo can be good. But it can be really bad, and what's the most scary thing is the gob-smackingly low level of "success" that is acceptable in trials to bring many new chemo drugs to market.
My belief is that some chemo can work, and supplemental therapies should be used as well. But do your homework and don't blindly listen to your doctors. They don't always know what's best.
Point being, people need to get *both sides* of the argument so they can make an informed decision as to when they should listen to ther doctors and maybe when not. My father didn't get both sides from his doctor, and he wouldn't really listen to me when it came to suggestions for alternative therapies to supplement the chemo that worked. So what did listening to his doctor get him? Some relief at first. And then dead more quickly than he would have been otherwise. |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:48 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
Your stress level over these topics might benefit if you could figure out why that degree of control over the thoughts of others is important.
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My stress level? In what way are you the arbiter of my stress level. I'm not the one worrying about my government being out to kill me. As for my intelligence level - I'm also not the one around here who claims to be "over-educated"!
Earlier you said, "Of course there are some things that are absolutely black/white, right/wrong (for example, I think *everyone* on this forum can probably agree that child molestation or female genital mutilation is wrong". But there will be those who disagree and think there is nothing wrong with it - otherwise why does it continue? So you are also guilty of not accepting other people's views.
As for Panos' posts - those of us who are familiar with his writings know what the situation is. However, there are others who come to this forum for the first time. Note that Aprile gave his posts a thank-you when he first appeared in the debate here. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:17 pm |
Keliu, you're the one who brought up your stress level when you indicated things were depressing and tiring (depressing + tiring = stress).
| Keliu wrote: |
| All the negativity is too depressing - but when much of the negativity and even the positivity is based on mis-information and downright nonsense, it gets very tiring. |
So I was just saying was that if you changed your approach to these threads a little, your autonomic response might change. Or is it everyone else's fault that these threads make you depressed and tired?
Not everything is relative (clitoral mutilation, etc.). Please don't try to say that because I argue that some things are relative, I believe everything is relative. It is not. I have always been clear that on many things, a definitive line between right and wrong has to be drawn. Frequently the line appears to be arbitrary, but it must be drawn somewhere or ultimately chaos would reign. But for myself, I prefer the line to be over something of big import and not forum drama driven largely by personality conflicts.
Therefore, IMHO, topics like these are not terribly "line-worthy". Everyone should have a say. Human beings are not at the limit of what can be known, and in 100 years the science that is being ballyhooed in these threads will be viewed as very crude. Many "alternative" ideas will be vindicated (and some will definitively be disproved as...bunkum ).
As far as panos...even a stopped clock is right twice per day (analog, that is ). Panos has tossed out a few nuggets here and there that I agree with, myself, even if overall he leaves me puzzled, and frequently annoyed. However, If I ever do heart him, please do not make the mistake of discounting me entirely for that. |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:10 pm |
OnlineLibrary.wiley.com
There are not many public health issues where views are as extremely polarized as those concerning vaccines, and Merck's HPV vaccine Gardasil is a case in point. Ever since gaining the FDA's approval in 2006, Merck has been heavily criticized for their overly aggressive marketing strategies and lobbying campaigns aimed at promoting Gardasil as a mandatory vaccine. Subsequently, questions have been raised as to whether it was appropriate for vaccine manufacturers to partake in public health policies when their conflicts of interests are so obvious. Some of their advertising campaign slogans, such as “cervical cancer kills x women per year” and “your daughter could become one less life affected by cervical cancer,” seemed more designed to promote fear rather than evidence-based decisionmaking about the potential benefits of the vaccine. Although, conflicts of interests do not necessarily mean that the product itself is faulty, marketing claims should be carefully
examined against factual science data.
Currently Gardasil vaccination is strongly recommended by the U.S. and other health authorities while public concerns about safety and efficacy of the vaccine appear to be increasing. This discrepancy leads to some important questions that need to be resolved. The current review examines key
issues of this debate in light of currently available research evidence.
Get PDF (297K)
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Human Papillome Virus Vaccine and Primary Ovarian Failure: Another Facet of the Autoimmune/Inflammatory syndrome Induced by Adjuvants
STUDY: JULY 31,2013
Problem
Post-vaccination autoimmune phenomena are a major facet of the autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants (ASIA) and different vaccines, including HPV, have been identified as possible causes.
Method of study
The medical history of three young women who presented with secondary amenorrhea following HPV vaccination was collected. Data regarding type of vaccine, number of vaccination, personal, clinical and serological features, as well as response to treatments were analyzed.
Results
All three patients developed secondary amenorrhea following HPV vaccinations, which did not resolve upon treatment with hormone replacement therapies. In all three cases sexual development was normal and genetic screen revealed no pertinent abnormalities (i.e., Turner's syndrome, Fragile X test were all negative). Serological evaluations showed low levels of estradiol and increased FSH and LH and in two cases, specific auto-antibodies were detected (antiovarian and anti thyroid), suggesting that the HPV vaccine triggered an autoimmune response. Pelvic ultrasound did not reveal any abnormalities in any of the three cases. All three patients experienced a range of common non-specific post-vaccine symptoms including nausea, headache, sleep disturbances, arthralgia and a range of cognitive and psychiatric disturbances. According to these clinical features, a diagnosis of primary ovarian failure (POF) was determined which also fulfilled the required criteria for the ASIA syndrome.
Conclusion
We documented here the evidence of the potential of the HPV vaccine to trigger a life-disabling autoimmune condition. The increasing number of similar reports of post HPV vaccine-linked autoimmunity and the uncertainty of long-term clinical benefits of HPV vaccination are a matter of public health that warrants further rigorous inquiry.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aji.12151/pdf
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If "It warrants further rigorous inquiry" and this information was available to you, as a parent considering the vaccine, would you ignore it? |
_________________
Founder of FlexEffect Facialbuilding. My Photo Journal: FlexEffect.com/deb-photos |
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Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:59 pm |
| Yubs wrote: |
Many "alternative" ideas will be vindicated (and some will definitively be disproved as...bunkum ).
As far as panos...even a stopped clock is right twice per day (analog, that is ). Panos has tossed out a few nuggets here and there that I agree with, myself, even if overall he leaves me puzzled, and frequently annoyed. However, If I ever do heart him, please do not make the mistake of discounting me entirely for that. |
But many of the alternative theories that are expressed here have already been proven as bunkum - that's the point. And in regard to Panos - if that is your opinion, why did you PM me with your advice? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:58 am |
| very interesting read thanks for that! |
_________________
46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:59 am |
| 10Sylvia5 wrote: |
| very interesting read thanks for that! |
Yes it was - and the subsequent responses to the article were also very informative. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:02 am |
| yes werent they? I thought I was the only one to read them |
_________________
46 got (PMD,Caci,QuasarMD,Tria , skin spatula) Using, environ , myfawnie serums, lacsal, retinol, GHk probably more but too embarrased to say |
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Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:06 am |
With regard to cancer prevention. I have heard that cancer is essentially, on a physical level, happy to develope in a body which lacks oxygenation and is therefore condusive to fungus. Apparently cancer is a kind of fungal growth.
This is why food grade hydrogen peroxide drunk in extremely dilute form is considered to be an excellent preventive and treatment.
I heard also that extremely dilute gum resin does the job of removing cancer and preventing the cancer friendly environment, also.
Pure resin used for this is pure turpentine, from pine trees. |
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Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:06 am |
I didnt mention MMS.
Cancer as fungus is considered to be bunkum by those that consider it to be bunkum , and cancer is fungus theory is considered to be profoundly true by those who have treated cancer as a fungus and cured themselves of it.
Lets keep a balanced and respectful view, shall we, and not dismiss ideas that have many testimonials asserting their validity, just because we find them new or unusual, or because we are bewildered by them. |
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