Nasolabial Folds--What's Worked and How Long Did It Take?
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

free skin care · Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:11 pm

katebargold wrote:

Smoothie people do you think adding protein powder to the smoothie would compromise the goodness. I have had for my breakfast for the last 5 years blueberries Linseed's oatmilk + protein powder smoothies. I love and its quick and keeps me satisfied to lunch. I have done the juices too but the protein powder is what satiates me so I want to continue this. I am thinking of adding spinach now as well but what do you think on the protein?

I haven't added protein powder but I know others have on the smoothies thread have...you may want to ask that question over there Wink

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=495342#495342

free skin care · Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:49 pm

SeanySeanUK wrote:

My nutrition training often pointed to the Chinese Five Elements theory, and your right we always were taught that NLs were actually a sign of an overactive or underactive digestive system. I say system, because it would often include the liver, the spleen, the pancreas as well as the other organs.

Sean this is really interesting.
Were you taught to take note of any other part of the face in order to ascertain whether the body is not functioning properly?

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:34 am

If you haven't read it yet, please pick up a copy of The Acid Alkaline Food Guide by Dr Susan E Brown and Larry Trivieri. This will explain exactly why your green/fruit smoothies are making you look better.

We westerners have too much acid-making foods in our diets which leads to premature ageing, energy and bone loss amongst other things. This guide doesn't stop you from eating anything, it just shows you what you should eat to redress the pH balance in your body. For example did you know a simple glass of water with lemon juice is highly alkaline for your body and milk is acidic?? Ever wonder why osteoporosis is on the way up in the west along with our diary consumption?? All animal produce (diary, meat, seafood and fish) is acid-making but protein is necessary, just eat your greens with it or fruit after to off-set the acid.

BTW going back in the thread, I'm finding Ageless is perhaps making my NL worse (I've got a kind of inverse V from above my nostrils leading to ( ) lines round my mouth). The V has definitely gotten worse since beginning Ageless, the ( ) began with an over-zealous beauty routine from a mis-guided dermatologist. They've knocked my confidence hugely. I've got a Tua Viso but genuinely don't think it's any good - put it on a high level and your eye twitches shut, put it on mild, is it working? I've started facial massage but since starting my V has gotten worse.

Seany-Sean - I'm curious of your quote here

"I think with the nl area, its important to work out if its caused by the cheek area sagging, and creating the line, or whether its damage tissue that has been exposed by the muscles lifting up and out. "

What does you mean by the second part?

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:35 pm

Actually we didn't use the face to diagnose problems per se, when taking a persons case history, looking at their through their childhood to their adult years, and factors such as their parents and grandparents health, and noting any challenges or problems they were facing, if a particular area was highlighted, such as digestion - we would look to the face to confirm that rather than looking at the face to diagnose problems (although there is a chinese face reading method of diagnosing health, its not one that I have personally trained in). So it was more or less used to confirm what we would find in the case history rather than ascertaining problems solely on appearance.

Does that make sense?

Sean

neondaze wrote:

Sean this is really interesting.
Were you taught to take note of any other part of the face in order to ascertain whether the body is not functioning properly?

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:38 pm

Miranda

Many pepole who begin facial exercises, notice that after a while when their cheeks begin lifting a line appears. The line was hidden before (almost covered by the sagging cheeks and skin on top) and so when the muscles start being worked out, and lifting up to their former rightful place, the damaged tissue which was previously hidden gets exposed per se.

From the original posters message here, she mentions doing facial exercises, and this is something that happens with many systems - and it certainly does with FlexEffect, but its one of the points I was making previously. You have to determine how the nl line appeared in the first place i.e. is it muscles sagging, or muscles lifting. Does that make sense?

I think people who don't have a knowledge of doing facial exercises always find this hard to believe - so I am wondering if someone else here can better explain what I mean?

Sean

This is Miranda wrote:

Seany-Sean - I'm curious of your quote here

"I think with the nl area, its important to work out if its caused by the cheek area sagging, and creating the line, or whether its damage tissue that has been exposed by the muscles lifting up and out. "

What does you mean by the second part?

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:03 pm

Miranda, I would second what Sean says.

My experience with 16 mos of FE vis a vis NL's is...

I started with a very faint line, and then a deeper line as my cheeks lifted. Then, I had that classic demarcation between cheek and upper lip area (elevated) - I guess a fold but not a saggy fold -- with a line. Now, I have the demarcation but it is at more of an obtuse angle. Not sure if that makes sense. Not so stark, more sloping, like my cheeks have lifted more. No line now, either. Needless to say, I am very happy with where I am NL-wise.

My gut instinct is to work through it. I see so many people seeing negative things happening, adjusting exercises, stopping exercises, panicking and then never getting to the next level and wondering why.

JMO... good luck!

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:44 pm

This is Miranda wrote:

If you haven't read it yet, please pick up a copy of The Acid Alkaline Food Guide by Dr Susan E Brown and Larry Trivieri. This will explain exactly why your green/fruit smoothies are making you look better.

We westerners have too much acid-making foods in our diets which leads to premature ageing, energy and bone loss amongst other things. This guide doesn't stop you from eating anything, it just shows you what you should eat to redress the pH balance in your body. For example did you know a simple glass of water with lemon juice is highly alkaline for your body and milk is acidic?? Ever wonder why osteoporosis is on the way up in the west along with our diary consumption?? All animal produce (diary, meat, seafood and fish) is acid-making but protein is necessary, just eat your greens with it or fruit after to off-set the acid...

Very much agree. Green smoothies represent one of the ways to bring body in the correct slightly alkaline zone. I monitor my pH balance daily, and take appropriate measures to make sure that I am in a right pH zone. One can not expect miracles from topicals while neglecting the diet. We need to make sure that our bodies are young and healthy from inside with every single cell. Proper diet and supplements are quintessential against aging.

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:30 pm

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Miranda

Many pepole who begin facial exercises, notice that after a while when their cheeks begin lifting a line appears. The line was hidden before (almost covered by the sagging cheeks and skin on top) and so when the muscles start being worked out, and lifting up to their former rightful place, the damaged tissue which was previously hidden gets exposed per se.

From the original posters message here, she mentions doing facial exercises, and this is something that happens with many systems - and it certainly does with FlexEffect, but its one of the points I was making previously. You have to determine how the nl line appeared in the first place i.e. is it muscles sagging, or muscles lifting. Does that make sense?

I think people who don't have a knowledge of doing facial exercises always find this hard to believe - so I am wondering if someone else here can better explain what I mean?

Thanks Sean and Vangirl3,
I just want to check I understand, the NL is either a sort of 'wrinkle' (damaged tissue) that's revealed once the cheek raises or sagging cheek flesh folding down?
I've been doing facial exercise for almost 5 years, until Sept it was the Eva Frasier method - which is much milder (less effective?) than FE and Ageless as there isn't any resistance applied. I have to say up until 9mths ago, I looked pretty good and young with only slight NL line and no ( ) lines. I've been wondering about Ageless making things worse because I believe instead of exercising my cheeks, I'm doing this....
http://www.face-and-emotion.com/dataface/expression/levator_labii.html

...basically I'm wondering if I'm not engaging my cheek muscles (which are dead?!), I'm using the mouth muscles lower down, which is exaggerating the NL. Infact since started Ageless, I'm getting a kind of 'monkey' mouth.
Could this be a third option as to why some peoples NL looks worse with facial exercise?

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:21 pm

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Actually we didn't use the face to diagnose problems per se - we would look to the face to confirm that rather than looking at the face to diagnose problems (although there is a chinese face reading method of diagnosing health, its not one that I have personally trained in). So it was more or less used to confirm what we would find in the case history rather than ascertaining problems solely on appearance.

Does that make sense?

Ahh... yes that makes sense. Though interesting that some practitioners are able to just look at the face and diagnose. Saeki Chizu (who wrote The Japanese Skincare Revolution - I haven't read it yet but am planning to get it. Skippie discovered it) is apparently able to just that. Even to the point of being able to tell what brand of skincare the person is using!

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:42 pm

It can be, unfortunately NL is a term thats overused to describe several factors. If the cheeks lift up and expose the line, then it takes time to undo that damage. If however the nl line is actually a fold say caused by the zygomaticus losing tone, then its different than the first example.

Eva does have resistance (usually with cotton gloves I recall). But in comparison to FE, its certainly milder.

The only way to see if your not engaging your cheek muscles are to do the exercises your doing in front of a mirror. If your noticing that there is no movement on the muscles your targeting, then stronger ones might be overcompensating for them.

With the 'monkey mouth' thats something I usually have seen before where people either engage their mouths in almost every exercise (been known to happen), or initiate the movement from the mouth and then engage partly the target muscle - so you end up overbuilding the mouth. Of course as your doing Ageless, I would head over to there to get detailed advice, but imagine taking a short break will help the area atrophy back to the state you previously liked and then you can reintroduce the exercises with less resistance and/or less reps.

Sean

This is Miranda wrote:

Thanks Sean and Vangirl3,
I just want to check I understand, the NL is either a sort of 'wrinkle' (damaged tissue) that's revealed once the cheek raises or sagging cheek flesh folding down?
I've been doing facial exercise for almost 5 years, until Sept it was the Eva Frasier method - which is much milder (less effective?) than FE and Ageless as there isn't any resistance applied. I have to say up until 9mths ago, I looked pretty good and young with only slight NL line and no ( ) lines. I've been wondering about Ageless making things worse because I believe instead of exercising my cheeks, I'm doing this....
http://www.face-and-emotion.com/dataface/expression/levator_labii.html

...basically I'm wondering if I'm not engaging my cheek muscles (which are dead?!), I'm using the mouth muscles lower down, which is exaggerating the NL. Infact since started Ageless, I'm getting a kind of 'monkey' mouth.
Could this be a third option as to why some peoples NL looks worse with facial exercise?

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:43 pm

Yes I notice something similar actually re brands and creams people use. Saeki also has a great video on Amazon where she demonstrates the lotion mask technique from her book (and its in English). Worth looking at in my opinion!

neondaze wrote:

Ahh... yes that makes sense. Though interesting that some practitioners are able to just look at the face and diagnose. Saeki Chizu (who wrote The Japanese Skincare Revolution - I haven't read it yet but am planning to get it. Skippie discovered it) is apparently able to just that. Even to the point of being able to tell what brand of skincare the person is using!

free skin care · Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:13 pm

SeanySeanUK wrote:

Yes I notice something similar actually re brands and creams people use.

Tell us more. What have you noticed?

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:54 am

LOL that question is kind of like how long is a piece of string, and probably something that I could go on forever about, but lets just say that when a particular brand is working of a persons skin, its noticeable in the feel of the tissue, it feels soft but firm. When a person is using something that their body doesn't like, the body has a way of trying to rid itself of it by maybe sweating more or getting shiney, or breaking out in spots for example.

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:28 am

Okay. I am floored.

I had my first ever green smoothie 2 days ago. The next morning, my skin looked so good-- it looked like I was wearing (fresh) makeup when I woke up! Okay, I thought, this is weird. I was excited that the green smoothie was actually working-- and so quickly too-- but then, I had also gotten a lot of sleep that night. Still, there are plenty of times in the past when I had gotten a ton of sleep and my skin had not looked that good!

Last night I had horrible sleep. But you know what? I woke up with bleary red bloodshot eyes & *good skin*! The acne breakout (probably purging from my aborted attempt at doing OCM and moving up to .05% retin-a) on my cheeks, which looked as though it was not going anywhere for a while, is *finally* starting to heal! Also, the cystic zit on my chin that I've had for a month is smaller! Yay!

While it's probably a combination of factors contributing to my *suddenly* improved skin health, I am impressed that the green smoothie, for me, is as good as a very powerful topical.

I still don't think my diet is bad, but the green smoothie must be adding something that I'm missing. (What's interesting to me is how US nutrition guidelines are based on a *deficiency* and don't really tell you what you need for *optimal* health.) Anyway, big wow! Thanks Tonia for the suggestion & Toby for starting the green smoothie thread (which I've read in its entirety!)

(The only thing about the green smoothie is that it's not convenient to do at all when you're traveling for extended periods!)

The N/L line is still there, though because my skin looks so much better, it *seems* to be a bit better. After taking a good, hard look at it, I've come to the conclusion that this line is probably the kind that's due to the "lifting of the cheeks" from facial exercise. There's not really any flesh overhanging into that area, just sort of a crease. (I'm not yet 40, and my skin is fairly resilient.)

I'm still a bit surprised how FE & Ageless has had this effect since I thought my muscles would be used to doing *some* sort of exercise since I had been doing Facercise since April (4 months prior to starting FE & Ageless)-- and I saw some improvements from doing that program. (I just wanted to step it up to the next level, especially after the reviews here on EDS.) Also, I thought that the Radiesse would cover things up until all of my face muscles were properly built up, although that has proved not to be the case.

(I'm wondering though, whether instead of dispersing the filler more quickly, the exercise just *revealed* the line, and the filler is still in there. Having this sort of filler go so quickly-- after 4 months, right about when I started Facercise-- does seems pretty unusual, since it's supposed to last for at least up to a year.)

Can anyone tell me how long it took for the N/L line to go away after it was "revealed"?

Thanks so much to all of you for your help!

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:25 am

One of the reasons I like smoothies is because it allows all the goodness of fruits/vegetables to be given to the body in a form that it doesn’t have to work hard in producing the same amounts of stomach acids etc to digest, and as it’s a liquid it can be somewhat hydrating to the body at the same time. Its great for children, who detest eating vegetables, as most will drink juices without fail (mind you sometimes you have to colour them a little to make them a lot more of an interesting colour).

Moving up to retin 0.05% and lack of sleep though are challenges your providing to your body, so just pay attention to how your body responds. At some point it might do more a detox but that’s a good thing. The smoothie will be giving your body minerals and other nutrients that may not be present in other foods your eating. Much of the recommended daily allowance for vitamins and minerals is based on data from the 1950’s, and so I think is always questionable. Also they never take into account deficiencies of individuals, and sometimes I think that some people can be very deficient in a particular group of vitamins, even though they take a supplement. Although as you say its not always convenient, there are nowadays more and more sources popping up - cafes that do juicing etc, and as long as you plan, you can make sure you get your daily serving. When I first did my juicing all those years ago, I noticed a major change in feeling if I didn’t have my juice in the morning within a matter of a couple f days.

Facercise is a good program, but it doesn’t really use the same level of resistance that FlexEffect and Ageless does, as you’re a lot more aggressive in your handling. I think many of Carole’s exercises enable people to use the mind, but not so much the physical resistance. When you compare her Cheek Developer (in which she uses one finger) to FE’s Cheek Raiser (in which we use three fingers and really pull down) you can see there is quite a difference, so its not a surprise to me really that your face has responded this way - but the good news is that it will improve as time goes by. Exercises do disperse filers quicker than per normal, and I have heard many people say so.

Re timeline for the line to disappear, it’s a difficult one to answer as your so individual and unique and have a different body, with its own unique set of challenges compared with someone else but I hope you get the results your hoping for soon!

Sean

jeanleemarquis wrote:

Okay. I am floored.

I had my first ever green smoothie 2 days ago. The next morning, my skin looked so good-- it looked like I was wearing (fresh) makeup when I woke up! Okay, I thought, this is weird. I was excited that the green smoothie was actually working-- and so quickly too-- but then, I had also gotten a lot of sleep that night. Still, there are plenty of times in the past when I had gotten a ton of sleep and my skin had not looked that good!

Last night I had horrible sleep. But you know what? I woke up with bleary red bloodshot eyes & *good skin*! The acne breakout (probably purging from my aborted attempt at doing OCM and moving up to .05% retin-a) on my cheeks, which looked as though it was not going anywhere for a while, is *finally* starting to heal! Also, the cystic zit on my chin that I've had for a month is smaller! Yay!

While it's probably a combination of factors contributing to my *suddenly* improved skin health, I am impressed that the green smoothie, for me, is as good as a very powerful topical.

I still don't think my diet is bad, but the green smoothie must be adding something that I'm missing. (What's interesting to me is how US nutrition guidelines are based on a *deficiency* and don't really tell you what you need for *optimal* health.) Anyway, big wow! Thanks Tonia for the suggestion & Toby for starting the green smoothie thread (which I've read in its entirety!)

(The only thing about the green smoothie is that it's not convenient to do at all when you're traveling for extended periods!)

The N/L line is still there, though because my skin looks so much better, it *seems* to be a bit better. After taking a good, hard look at it, I've come to the conclusion that this line is probably the kind that's due to the "lifting of the cheeks" from facial exercise. There's not really any flesh overhanging into that area, just sort of a crease. (I'm not yet 40, and my skin is fairly resilient.)

I'm still a bit surprised how FE & Ageless has had this effect since I thought my muscles would be used to doing *some* sort of exercise since I had been doing Facercise since April (4 months prior to starting FE & Ageless)-- and I saw some improvements from doing that program. (I just wanted to step it up to the next level, especially after the reviews here on EDS.) Also, I thought that the Radiesse would cover things up until all of my face muscles were properly built up, although that has proved not to be the case.

(I'm wondering though, whether instead of dispersing the filler more quickly, the exercise just *revealed* the line, and the filler is still in there. Having this sort of filler go so quickly-- after 4 months, right about when I started Facercise-- does seems pretty unusual, since it's supposed to last for at least up to a year.)

Can anyone tell me how long it took for the N/L line to go away after it was "revealed"?

Thanks so much to all of you for your help!

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:13 am

Brilliant thread!
Well done Jeanleemarquis on starting this one.

During our 20's and 30's we're all told to treat the eye area carefully as this is what will age us in years to come, but in reality it's the mouth area (NL lines, jowls, marionette lines, disappearing lips) that get us all going.
I'd much rather have eye crinkles than these NL lines. Sad

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:35 am

Sometimes this fold can look good. Leaves sort of an impression with attitude. Probably, that's the case, when cheeks have lifted the skin, not when gravity has pulled it down.

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:12 am

Hi Jeanlee and Jackie - I had radiesse once (way before I got into facial exercise) and yes they told me it would last a year and I doubt any remained at the three month mark and this had nothing to do with facial exercises. Many on here have said the same thing. LucyLuc does not do facial exercise and she has had many fillers and they have not lasted - many lasted less than a month I believe she said (except Artefill). Facial exercise and TV may cause the quicker dissapation but what I am saying is that for many of us it happens anyway - even without doing the facial exercise.

That said, I'm like mpstat - relying soley on facial exercise to keep things lifted and it works better than filler ever did. I had my moments where I wasn't sure but I'm very sure now. (1.5 years of facial exercising on a regular basis).

jeanleemarquis wrote:

Mpstat-- How often do you do the cheek bootcamp? Also, how long did it take before you saw results?

Jackie-- Although I can't vouch for whether the TV dissipates fillers faster than they would normally would otherwise, I believe that doing the facial resistance exercises have definitely had that effect. I mean come on, Radiesse is supposed to last something like a year, but I only got 4 months out of it! I was *hoping* that I would get results from the exercises before I needed to think about getting a filler again. Oh well. This is an interesting topic-- perhaps you could start a new thread?

I *thought* my N/L folds were actually getting better for a while, and then I tried this facial exercise program called "Faceworks" described by Moonstone on the bone facial exercise thread. (She said that her N/L folds got better in a week!) However, mine just seemed to have gotten worse. *Sigh*.

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:59 am

Vor wrote:

Sometimes this fold can look good. Leaves sort of an impression with attitude. Probably, that's the case, when cheeks have lifted the skin, not when gravity has pulled it down.

The folds look good on men (think David Beckham) but on women - it can look hard, especially if you have a slender face like mine.
I'm sure mine aren't folds, they're expression lines from over using my mouth muscles.

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:51 am

Wah! I think I am detoxing-- I feel horrible, achey, sort of flu-like, tired. Who knew that one little (actually sort of big) green drink could do all of this, or at least put me over the edge of what I've been doing? Ah vanity.

I agree with you Miranda, those N/L's can look okay on a guy, but are so aging on women! It's like how Loulou says in Ageless that the shape of a woman's face looks more masculine as she ages because of the general movement toward the lower and central areas of the face as muscles lengthen & losing the roundness of the upper cheeks. And those N/L lines just seem to emphasize the lengthening of the lower 1/3rd! Vor, while I agree that the N/L lines can look "interesting"-- like a mature, experienced person (in a European way)-- they can also make you look so tired, even when you're not!

I wonder if AHA's will make the line slough off faster?

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:44 pm

jeanleemarquis wrote:

I wonder if AHA's will make the line slough off faster?

Be very careful with the AHA route.
The whole reason why I'm here on EDS is because in May this year, a top London dermatologist put me on a routine of AHA at night, PHA daytime, with a mild acid peel every 6-8 weeks with mild microdermabrasion (plus a good 45spf sunscreen). Basically she stripped away my epidermis and thinned my skin and that's when I developed my parenthesis ( ) lines round my mouth. I went from looking 10 years younger to my age in the space of 2 months. That's why in September - after I threw away all her products and stopped going, I started Ageless. But this has definitely made my NL worse (I think Sean is spot on that I do my exercises using my mouth muscle).
I'm on a bit of a one-man crusade against over-exfoliating the face although some (great looking) people swear by it (Kassy_A for example). It works well for some but I do think if you're under 45, it's best to not strip the skin too much with regular AHA use. Your epidermis could be a vital part of holding your face together (mine was!!).
I only went to the derma. to help with my long-term monthly hormonal spots - but looking back, I'd rather those than what I have now.

Take a look at this article on exfoliation.
http://www.middle-ageless.com/2009/10/can-exfoliation-damage-skin.html

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:01 pm

Anyone...

For my frown muscle contractions (a habit), I often firmly slide my fingers over the frown, over my eyebrows to my temples pulling my skin and smoothing the area.

My question is this; would this technique work for NL and parenthesis lines? To smooth the skin away, releasing tension and tight muscles? To train the muscle to pull in a different direction?
Or would stretching skin not connected to bone the same way as the forehead, stretch and slacken the skin?

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Its worth trying, and seeing what results you get!

This is Miranda wrote:

Anyone...

For my frown muscle contractions (a habit), I often firmly slide my fingers over the frown, over my eyebrows to my temples pulling my skin and smoothing the area.

My question is this; would this technique work for NL and parenthesis lines? To smooth the skin away, releasing tension and tight muscles? To train the muscle to pull in a different direction?
Or would stretching skin not connected to bone the same way as the forehead, stretch and slacken the skin?

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:46 pm

Has anyone else tried this before I embark on stretching my skin into large NL folds? Laughing

free skin care · Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:39 pm

This is Miranda wrote:

Has anyone else tried this before I embark on stretching my skin into large NL folds? Laughing

I do massage them vigourously with one finger inside and one outside my mouth. I have notice thickening of the skin and the actual "line" in reducing...but I do have some sculptra there as well.

I realise this is not exactly what you were asking...but.....

rebecca

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