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Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:18 am  |
| Jax wrote: |
| I have read conflicting info on the safety of micronized vs. nano particles. Does anyone (meaning researchers) really know which version of physical blocks is safest? |
It seems on "absorbed by skin" side micro sized is not safy, on "go into our circulatory system"
nano sized is not safe. Maybe only the size greater than micro is safe? However, I'm not a researcher about this, we need someone really know this to tell the truth. |
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Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:27 am |
For instance, if the micronized zinc oxide is coated, with dimethicone than it cannot penetrate skin (uncoated can penetrate in places of eczema, shaved etc), and yes micronized zinc oxide offers a stronger UV protection than non micronized... It's also not as white on skin
| Quote: |
| Reviews of the scientific and regulatory literature provide compelling evidence that nano sized particles of zinc oxide remain on the skin’s surface and do not penetrate the skin.(1)(3) Furthermore, there are no studies showing that nano sized particles of zinc oxide can penetrate human skin. The FDA has declared the use of nanoparticles safe in cosmetics and sunscreens and they are “not aware of any safety concerns regarding the material.”(4) In 2006, the German and Australian governments both acknowledged scientific studies showing that micronized zinc oxide does not penetrate the outer layer of skin and they regard it safe to use in topical sunscreens |
Just an example, and has references at the bottom
https://www.badgerbalm.com/t-SPF_tech.aspx |
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Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:14 pm |
zverenok, you seem very versed in this and I appreciate the discussions going on in this thread.
I hope I'm not too late to contribute, but you might want to look at the Skin Biology sunscreens: Day Cover and Sun Tanning Lotion.
The wonderful thing about these are they have copper peptides in them. They are not actually 'sunscreens' (Dr Pickart doesn't have the $$ to get FDA approved, long story I can explain in a PM if you want), but they do have TiO2 in them along with some anti-oxidants like the CPs (yes- it does act like an anti-ox), and vit E or squalane and allantoin.
If you're not familiar with CPs, Copper Peptide products are "safe and effective products that help activate the skin's natural renewal systems to remove the effects of aging and damage on skin and restore it to a younger and healthier condition" (NCN Skincare). I think its a great way to add CPs to my skincare regime as I already use them on my face with great success.
I also found that the Suntan Lotion worked great for me the last 2 summers that I have tried it. I also used it in the Carribean on holidays. I use the Suntan Lotion on my body and MMU on my face (with CPs or Vit C underneath the MMU, as they both help with sun protection, but cannot be used at the same time). If I will spend a full day on our boat or where I have no shade to escape to, I will add another SS on top of the Suntan Lotion for extra protection. At the end of the day, I will remove the SS in a shower and apply the SB Body Lotion (more CPs and helps the skin recover from sun exposure - esp if it got a little pink)
I have never had a bad sunburn using these products. I have gotten a little pink a couple of times (the SB Suntan Lotion is not very strong), but applying the Body Lotion at the end of the day really helps. My skin would be fine the next day!
Here are the ingredients:
P & R Day Cover(for the face)
Purified water, copper peptides (hydrolyzed soy protein and copper chloride), ethylhexyl palmitate, glyceryl stearate, PEG-100 stearate, squalane, PPG-2 myristyl ether propionate, cetyl alcohol, titanium dioxide, stearic acid, propylene glycol (and) diazolidinyl urea (and) methylparaben (and) propylparaben, allantoin, cupric chloride, lavandula angustifolia (lavender) oil, tocophersolan (Vitamin E), fragrance, mixed (alpha, beta, gamma, delta) tocopherols, mixed (alpha, beta, gamma, delta) tocotrienols, ubiquinone (CoQ-10).
Suntanning Lotion (for the body)
Purified water, copper peptides (hydrolyzed soy protein and copper chloride), squalane, ethylhexyl palmitate, glyceryl stearate, PEG-100 stearate, PPG-2 myristyl ether propionate, titanium dioxide, cetyl alcohol, stearic acid, olea europaea (olive) fruit oil, propylene glycol (and) diazolidinyl urea (and) methylparaben (and) propylparaben, aloe barbadensis leaf juice (aloe vera) gel, allantoin, cupric chloride, salicylic acid, tocophersolan (Vitamin E), lavandula augustifolia (lavender) oil, menthol, mixed natural tocopherols (alpha, beta, gamma, delta isomers), mixed natural tocotrienols (alpha, beta, gamma, delta isomers), ubiquinone (CoQ-10).
Body Lotion:
Basic: Purified water, copper peptides (hydrolyzed soy protein and copper chloride), squalane, ethylhexyl palmitate, PPG-2 myristyl ether propionate, glyceryl stearate, PEG-100 stearate, lavandula angustifolia (lavender) oil, cetyl alcohol, stearic acid, propylene glycol (and) diazolidinyl urea (and) methylparaben (and) propylparaben, fragrance, cupric chloride, allantoin, tocophersolan (Vitamin E), mixed natural tocopheryls (alpha, beta, gamma, delta), mixed natural tocotrienols (alpha, beta, gamma, delta), xanthophyll (lutein), lycopene, ubiquinone (CoQ-10).
Dr Pickart from Skin Biology (the inventor of CPs) does not like a lot of the ingredients out there and tries to keep his as 'pure' as possible. He is aware of the issues associated with micronized and smaller TiO2 and ZnO SSs. He will not use them. He tries to offset the small amount of TiO2 in his products with other antioxidents to protect the skin. It seems to work (for me) at least. I had great skin with a small amt of tan last summer on my body. My face stayed tan free using CPs, Vit C and MMU. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:29 pm |
| You can get the Skin Biology Day Cover and some other facial CPs here at EDS. For the Suntan Lotion and Body Lotion, Skin Biology has those as well as diannayvonne.com |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:06 pm |
| zverenok wrote: |
For instance, if the micronized zinc oxide is coated, with dimethicone than it cannot penetrate skin (uncoated can penetrate in places of eczema, shaved etc), and yes micronized zinc oxide offers a stronger UV protection than non micronized... It's also not as white on skin
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How can we tell it is coated or not? I think most manufacturer just mentioned ingredients, no more details. |
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Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:35 pm |
Hi there foxy
Very interesting information, it sounds like you know him personally? Definitely PM me if you have more input on this?
Anyways, I would prefer to have zinc oxide alongside titanium dioxide in a physical sunscreen. Agree, that the top sunscreen should be a physical one containing antioxidants/vitamins.
If it was just me, I'd just apply a powder of td & zo with mica or what not. The less the better. But I am interested for something that will also offer antioxidants/anti-aging materials.
Titanium dioxide alone cannot protect against uva & uvb broad spectrum. Hence this sounds more like an antioxidant sunscreen which would need to be applied 15-30 minutes before exposure, am I correct?
kikiw, yes, probably most manufacturors won't be so open and disclose this info. Especially that dimethicone coated z-cote is more expensive than uncoated one. |
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Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:51 pm |
I'll agree its best to have both TiO2 and ZnO together, but Dr Pickart says the ZnO reacts with the copper peptides and does not include them for that reason.
He has said you could put on CPs first, cover with Emu or Squalene oil (a protective layer) and THEN add a SS w/ ZnO in it. The Emu also acts as a pusher for CPs since it resembles the sebum in human skin and is readily accepted by it. Putting it on top of CPs will enhance the effect of the CPs. Putting it under CPs will lessen the effect/block it a bit. (Good for sensitive skin not use to CPs yet)
I find that the SB Suntan Lotion worked great alone last year - using it like that when I was in the sun. (working in the yard or boating) Even being in the Carribean it worked for me on my body. My face always needed something stronger and my MMU over the CPs or Vit C was perfect. With the anti-oxidants in the SB sun products, you may not need ZnO for 'every day' use. I would add a product with it for stronger sun exposure though.
I don't personally know Dr P, but have been a fan of the SB products since early '08 and have read so much on them. He has published tons of studies on the effects of CPs, so they are one of the few products out there that has supported claims. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:45 am |
Hi Foxe, I have come to learn this too regarding Physical SS. I mostly use TD and avoid ZO since I use CPs.
Dr. Pickart has mentioned that ZO will still work as a SS with CPs, but the ZO can cause enlarged pores as the copper and zinc ions compete. If using together it is best to apply a CPs first then a thin layer of your favorite BHO to buffer the zinc oxide from competing. That is what I understand is the cause of potential enlarged pores.
That is why I stick with TD in my MMU and SS. I have plenty of other things to worry about, enlarged pores is the last thing that I need.  |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:36 am |
| Anyone knows mexoryl sx/xl? It has been proven an effective ingredient for broad spectrum and long time protection. |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:30 am |
| Star Model wrote: |
Dr. Pickart has mentioned that ZO will still work as a SS with CPs, but the ZO can cause enlarged pores as the copper and zinc ions compete. If using together it is best to apply a CPs first then a thin layer of your favorite BHO to buffer the zinc oxide from competing. That is what I understand is the cause of potential enlarged pores.
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I am not sure what you mean by "competing" and why would this cause enlarged pores? Can you explain it further? |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:43 am |
| I think by competing, she meant competing for absorption. But I am not quite sure about this, because zinc oxide is a physical block, the whole point of which is not to get absorbed but to stay as a thin layer on top of skin.... |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:49 am |
| zverenok wrote: |
| I think by competing, she meant competing for absorption. But I am not quite sure about this, because zinc oxide is a physical block, the whole point of which is not to get absorbed but to stay as a thin layer on top of skin.... |
It makes me wonder what my multivitamins that have both copper and zinc do internally if they compete? Most brands of Multi's do contain both? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:53 am |
No clue DM.  However, I just posted my assumption of what was meant, so I do not think or have any basis to think that it is correct.
Multivitamins - I haven't seen copper peptides in them? Also you have zinc there, not zinc oxide... So, don't worry...
I still haven't seen proof of this statement, and my interpretation of the word competing may have been off... |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:06 pm |
| zverenok wrote: |
No clue DM. However, I just posted my assumption of what was meant, so I do not think or have any basis to think that it is correct.
Multivitamins - I haven't seen copper peptides in them? Also you have zinc there, not zinc oxide... So, don't worry...
I still haven't seen proof of this statement, and my interpretation of the word competing may have been off... |
I understand what you were saying, my point I get the impression that what the concern that's being expressed has more to do with the metals not the oxide portion as it is stated that titanium oxide is still ok? I am getting the impression that there is an issue with zinc and copper, I know you are speculating on another's possible meaning here. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:23 pm |
| zverenok wrote: |
| I think by competing, she meant competing for absorption. But I am not quite sure about this, because zinc oxide is a physical block, the whole point of which is not to get absorbed but to stay as a thin layer on top of skin.... |
I guess I just find it a strange comment, but will wait for an answer from Star Model.
The reason I asked about zinc oxide competing with copper peptides is this: Neova has a product called Day Therapy SPF 20; it contains Prezatide Copper Acetate (which I believe is GHK-Cu). It includes Octinoxate 7.5%, Octisalate 5%, Zinc Oxide 2% as the active sunscreen ingredients.
I am surprised they include any zinc oxide with copper peptides, given what Star Model has said. Average customer rating is 5 stars (based on 14 reviews at DermStore.com) so I question the enlarged pores statement. |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:29 pm |
This is per Nanci's (NCN) newsletter from February regarding the ZO and CP.
"Dr. Pickart told me that "SOME women say their pores became larger after using zinc oxide. Skin acids could release ionic zinc and this could block the copper effects"." |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:17 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| zverenok wrote: |
| I think by competing, she meant competing for absorption. But I am not quite sure about this, because zinc oxide is a physical block, the whole point of which is not to get absorbed but to stay as a thin layer on top of skin.... |
It makes me wonder what my multivitamins that have both copper and zinc do internally if they compete? Most brands of Multi's do contain both? |
Copper Peptides and Zinc Oxide are not the same as the copper and zinc found in vitamins?
But the same basic principle applies:
"Vitamins 101" - Excess zinc robs copper. The fastest and easiest way to promote aging! |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:24 pm |
Exactly, I would love to see some articles or proof for this statement
| Quote: |
"Vitamins 101" - Excess zinc robs copper. The fastest and easiest way to promote aging!" |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:01 pm |
Hi Zverenok,
I guess there are quicker ways to promote aging. That is from my perspective. I do not smoke, use cosmetics or skincare products that contain chemicals, nor do I ingest any. I suppose those could get you there quicker? I have always been a purist.
Low copper is often associated with numerous aging issues. Gray hair is one of them. But that is another thread. |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:36 pm |
Here is a quote of Dr. Pickarts from his forum on the question of zinc oxide and CPs:
| Quote: |
| The problem with zinc oxide is that skin acids can cause the zinc oxide to release zinc ions. These can interfere with the actions of the copper ions. Some women tell me that zinc oxide sunscreens increase the size of their pores. |
this is pretty much what riley posted from NCN/Nanci. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:39 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
The reason I asked about zinc oxide competing with copper peptides is this: Neova has a product called Day Therapy SPF 20; it contains Prezatide Copper Acetate (which I believe is GHK-Cu). It includes Octinoxate 7.5%, Octisalate 5%, Zinc Oxide 2% as the active sunscreen ingredients.
I am surprised they include any zinc oxide with copper peptides, given what Star Model has said. Average customer rating is 5 stars (based on 14 reviews at DermStore.com) so I question the enlarged pores statement. |
Not StarModel, but Dr Pickart has posted on his forum on Neova including zinc before and does not agree with it. Could this possibly be one of the reasons why they parted ways? When boards take over companies, a lot of the original philosophy gets lost - especially from an inventor.
Procyte (maker of Neova) was formed in 1985 and incorporated in 1989. Dr Pickart left in 1991 and formed Skin Biology in 1992. He says it was 'health' reasons. I have often wondered. Skin Biology is privately owned.
The Neova product also contains chemical ingredients, which Dr Pickart is very much against including in sunscreens. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:48 pm |
Hi circus
Thanks for your link. I read that post, but not too much discussion about Mexoryls. Maybe because it's chemical sunscreen filter, many people do not like it? Or there are some side effects? But I use La Roche-Posay sunscreen and feel it's a good product. I just wondering why there are rarely discussion about La Roche-Posay's line, any disputable ingredient? |
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Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:58 pm |
| Reading the Skinbiology ingredient list I find the use of natural to be a stretch? The CP serum contains propylene glycol, methylparaben, propylparaben ect. ect. ?? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:43 am |
Thanks DM,
My point exactly, not such a pure natural ingredient line after all.
And when you say avoid use of chemicals, actually our composition is entirely chemical, I guess what you meant is bad/nasty chemicals, which we certainly do not need. |
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