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facialgirl
New Member
 
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
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Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:10 pm  |
Hi there,
I have been using the sensitive skin creme moisturiser from the Decléor line and have found it to be good for my skin (no breakouts or reactions). According to the ingredients listing, it includes silicone (dimethicone). Is this a good thing? I have read some negative things about it and am considering switching moisturisers because of this.
Any suggestions/info/comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. |
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Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:18 pm |
| I think i varies. Personally, I can´t use cones, or I´ll break out in two seconds, while many people happily use it without problems. Most primers are silicone based, to help makeup adhere to the skin better. I say, if you don´t have any problems, stick to what you like. I avoid it like the plague, though. |
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Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:21 pm |
| I can't use primers for the same reason, the silicones break me out. |
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Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:18 pm |
| I have the same problem with silicones - I tried to use Smashbox's primer, Philosophy's " On a Clear Day " and the Monistat Chafing gel, all to no avail. What's weird though, is I use BE's Skin Revver Upper, which contains dimethicone, and it doesn't irritate my skin at all. I do however, think that BE has a much lower percentage, because my skin doesn't have that weird slick feeling like most primers give you. |
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Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:30 pm |
Silicone isn't a problem for most people because it's very nonreactive -- meaning little chance of irritation. In fact, it's often used as a barrier against irritation. But the the same properties that make it a barrier against pollution, wind etc also may make some people's skin congested because it doesn't "breathe" as much as a water based moisturizer. But I haven't found that there is any correlation between skin type and reaction to silicones -- I for example have acne prone skin but silicone doesn't make me break out.
Silicone has been around for longer than you think and you might have been using it all along -- it's the lubricant on most condoms.  |
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Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:34 pm |
| makeupfiend, just a note to you -- the different types of silicone are very different in weight, viscosity etc, so it is possible that you would get a different reaction from different forms of it. Think of them as different forms of oils -- you wouldn't want mineral oil in your products but almond oil is ok. So jst make a note of which ones work for you and which don't. |
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facialgirl
New Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
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Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:24 am |
Hi there,
Thanks so much to all of you for your insights on silicone. I guess I will keep an open mind about this ingredient. It's hard to figure out what's what in terms of ingredient listings.
Thanks again and have a great day!
Cheers, Facialgirl |
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Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:57 pm |
| waffle wrote: |
Silicone has been around for longer than you think and you might have been using it all along -- it's the lubricant on most condoms. |
Waffle. . .you are too funny! I just got into silicones this week. I had a sample of dermalogica multivitamin power firm eye anf lip treatment which has dimethicone as the 3rd ingredient. I was apprehensive about it until I read this thread. I loved the sample and even bought some for when the sample runs out. It is amazingly smooth (but not rally greasy) and almost feels like a layer of skin. I love it! Have you ever tried the dermaloigca I'm describing??? How does it compare to your favs? |
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Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:58 pm |
Hi there, I just posted
this in another post on eds - hope it helps -
I wish I could draw this out - ok - think of the skin in layers. (If you were on the just the facts page of greatnewskin - the say no to silicones has a lot of info - I will add this in when I can. - and the microdermabrasion info page - There is a wonderful microscope slice) So please think of a layer, the top, or epidermal layer of your skin.
-it is hard, dead, keratinized cells (think of it as cement)
-it is not a smooth surface, it has dips, crags, you can easily see this in the microsope slice photo)
-Stuff gets caught in these areas, dirt, debris, product waxes, silicones.... oils etc
-this layer as you age is 20-30 layers and more
-new skin cells are birthed at the basal or bottom level far below these layers
-those cells migrate up but only hit the bottom part of this hard dead layer (that is why microdermabrasion is so great) remember this when you think of skin renewing itself
How can I describe this - have you ever been cleaning your walls or kitchen - you have a grimy area (I would say the skin fits this category as you are dealing with old oil, dirt and residues) - you have a really good cleaner on your sponge, but is just isn't getting it all? You can scrub all you want - until you have the right cleaner and even still sometimes - it isn't going to come off??
That is kind of how it is. It isn't quite as simple as just having the raw ingredient of a silicone. That silicone derivative is enmeshed in a formulation which gives it a new character, does that make sense? Now that residue becomes like the residue on the wall or kitchen that you are scrubbing like mad with your good cleaner on your sponge - and it just isn't all coming off. To top it - there are thousands of derivatives, some you may not even know are silicone derivatives - that is how many products they are in - so you are now increasing that residue and what remains in the nooks and crannies of skin surface imperfections and they pack together and become impacted crud. Not pretty sounding, but Bapa the Dermatologist insists this is what happens - and from the pathology slides of my ex - sure looks to me like the 2 doctors are right!
This is how silicone builds up. Does that make sense at all? This is why you notice it is hard for your skin to absorb water, it can't. This layer becomes like a plastic bag over your skin.
Your skin is an organ. One of its functions is the exchange of gases and toxins. This plastic layer forces this gaseous toxic exchange to be re-absorbed by the skin. Loaded with free - radicals it goes down and wreaks havoc cross-linking and degrading the structures that hold up your skin - collagen and elastin.
Most of us have had the experience as consumers of using a product - loving it for 4-6 months then all of a sudden it seems to stop working and so we switch to another line - I think a big part of what is really happening is we have reached a plateau with the silicone base that is in that particular product. We switch and maybe the next one has a slightly different silicone derivative - and a penetrating ether base with it - this one goes in differently and oh - here we go again - wow - it looks great for a bit and zap.
Maybe I am the only one this has happened to -
The industry right now is in love with silicones!
Why? They have a silky, slick , sensual feel and they fill in surface skin imperfections. The customer has an initial ooh and ah - and oh the skin looks good for awhile - until the wastes start to build up and there goes the cycle again. The skin is fooled into thinking it is hydrated - I went thru this when I was testing and researching - I thought the Chrysalyx wasn't hydrating enough for me - I knew with the ingredients it had to be - I stuck with it - week 2-3 and our customers will tell you over and over - same time frame too - all of a sudden it is one day like your skin feels hydrated from the inside out like your skin can breathe - I had never experienced this before - most of them tell me they haven't either.
In my opinion as a RN and skin care formulator - silicones are one of the most destructive ingredients being used today.
I think you guys are wonderful - thank you - Amy
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Thank you for your time, sending many blessings in life. | President NaturDerm, Inc. / Greatnewskin |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:18 am |
O.K. Amy, it means that once i used silicones in my life i'm lost for ever because i can't get off the build-up anymore ?!
I've been happily using skinmedica's vit C (with silicon) for almost 3 months now (haven't really noticed any buid-up yet). Before that i had problems to use vitC : with the watery serums my face was a sahara - with the oily ones the oil wasn't absorbed the whole day long, causing shine (and break outs...). |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:53 am |
Hi Amy. I will post my reply here instead of in the Epidermx thread since this thread is directly addressing the issue of silicones.
I did a little experiment this morning. I took some Dermalogica Barrier Repair which is pretty much all silicones and rubbed some on the wall in my bathroom. I left it alone for about 20 minutes then I lathered some Dove soap in my hands applied it to the wall and removed with a wet washcloth. It was obvious after doing this that the silicone was still on the wall but had been removed somewhat. Next I took some Kose Cleansing Oil and applied it to the wall and did the same removing with a wet washcloth. The cleansing oil did remove the silicon and in my opinion it removed it completely.
I have noticed from using silicones personally that if I have some of the product on my hands it does take several washings with soap and water for it to be completely removed. I actually use cleansing oil to clean my face in the evenings so I am guessing that this is adequately removing the silicon from my skin. I think the key might be in what is used to cleanse the skin and I could actually see silicone being a problem if it is not removed daily.
I also understand that the skin is like you said not perfectly even so perhaps comparing it to painted wood is not entirely appropriate. But I still don't understand why silicones would build up on your skin while other ingredients such as oils, butters, gums would not. I know form experience cleaning that oils can be very hard to remove from surfaces also. In fact when I am trying to clean a surface in my kitchen and am having a hard time cleaning it, oil is usually the culprit. So I am not really convinced that silicones build up on the skin anymore than oils would.
On the silicones forming a occlusive layer on the skin. I also think that many oils can be occlusive.
Honestly until a few weeks ago I tended to avoid products that contained alot of silicones. I did not avoid them all together because like you said they are in so many products. I avoided them because I did not care for the feel of them and did not like the thought that I did actually need to put some extra effort into removing them. But I have been using the same C serum as lin23 and am finding that I prefer the feel of the silicones to the stickiness of the other C serums. I would think that I can tell if there is a silicone on my skin because they do make it harder for the skin to absorb water like I said before. Once I wash my face with my cleansing oil it does not seem to have any problem absorbing water so I am assuming that it has no silicone on it. But I will keep an open mind on this and perhaps some more research on my part is in order.
BTW I do appreciate you taking the time to explain your position on silicones. I also read your post on parabens and that was appreciated also. While I may not be convinced of the dangers of silicone, I do appreciate hearing alternate opinions on this topic. |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:25 am |
Just a quick note here. Our company is making a natural alternative to silicones. It has a trade name of "Floramac 10" and has an INCI name of ethyl macadamiate. It is an ethyl ester of Macadamia Oil, which I am a great fan of. Ethyl Macadamiate has been found to have the same spreading properties and same slip properties of many of the silicones in use today. I have formulated many "with" and "without" formulas to compare the silicone version to the ethyl macadamiate version and in panel testing people could find no differences in skin feel or function. We are taking this to as many cosmetic manufacturers as possible to give them an alternative to silicones. A couple of them have taken it to heart and have created a wonderful "Cream to Powder" foundation product. In Japan, silicones are used in tremendous amounts in hair care products and have been patented for that use in every way possible. We went over there and gave the formulators ethyl macadamiate as a substitute and they loved it. Especially since they could create new products that get around the silicone patents.
In any event, look for formulas with "ethyl macadamiate" in the ingredients list and you will know that it is in there in place of a silicone or multiple silicones.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:32 am |
| John C. Hill wrote: |
| A couple of them have taken it to heart and have created a wonderful "Cream to Powder" foundation product. John |
Hi John - welcome to the Forum. Are there any products available for purchase that incorporate your silicone alternative?
Pudoodles  |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:56 am |
Unfortunately, that is the hard part. Our company sells the raw materials to the cosmetic industry. Unless we track sales very closely, it becomes difficult to determine what products are produced with our raw materials in it. Quite often the cosmetic companies keep this information very secret, trying to be the "first" to come out with new products and new functions.
Perhaps the best advice that I can give at this time is to do a search on either "Floramac 10" or better yet "ethyl macadamiate" and see if some hits come up that are actual cosmetic products.
Meanwhile, later today I'll ask some of the marketing and sales guys over here, and maybe they know of some actual products that have the ethyl mac in it right now.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:58 am |
another silicone break out girl here  the worst was when i was also using it in my hair products as i have long hair and was getting it everywhere (clothes, sheets, pillow cases, towels) and breaking out in places i never would have thought of. it took me forever to get it out until i rinsed (both hair and cloths) with ACV. |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:04 am |
I don't know if I sound stupid, but i cannot understand how the products with silicones work. If silicones create a barrier on the skin, they should interfere with penetration of other ingredients in the cream/serum making the actives less effective. So, how can the C or some other serums with silicones be effective?  |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:11 am |
We have done occlusive testing on silicones to see just how much of a barrier ingredient they might be. We have found that silicones are not as occlusive as we had thought or anticipated. Therefore, they don't create as much of a barrier as you would think.
I have just started a new thread called ethyl macadamiate as a substitute for silicones. Here is what I have posted there:
On a previous Hot thread about silicones I posted that ethyl macadamiate was being used successfully as a natural alternative to silicones in cosmetic products. I was asked if I knew of any products that currently use ethyl macadamiate.
The "Skin Deep" website has ethyl macadamiate listed. Note: it is also listed as a very safe raw material. Click on this link and go to the page. It will list "products that the raw material is used in". You can click on these product categories and find some brands that use ethyl macadamiate. Just keep clicking further and further into the category type until you reach the ingredients list. Read through the list to make sure ethyl mac is there....and then....you have found your consumer products!
http://www.ewgactionfund.org/reports/skindeep2/report.php?type=INGREDIENT&id=2230
John |
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President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:25 am |
I am another one who has problems with silicones, though until recently I still had them in a lot of products I used.
Almost 3 years ago my skin was in terrible condition, my t-zone was oily, but I had flakey bits of skin all over my nose... when I went in for a brow wax, I got talking to the beautician and she told me that the problem was that my skin was suffocating... even though I was using cream (creme de la mer, actually at the time) hydration was not going in (flakey bits) and my skin was producing extra sebum to compensate (giving me my oily slick).
By watching what I use (though not eleminating the silicones completely, though almost) I was able to stop the flakiness, but the oil slick remained and was one trouble I have battled with over the last few months. But with a bit of effort I have been finding a few lines that dont have silicones or derivatives in them and my skin is happier for it. It is an ongoing process to change everything over, but I will get there eventually. |
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SKIN: combination, reactive to climate changes and extremely fair. "Women complain about premenstrual syndrome, but I think of it as the only time of the month that I can be myself." --Roseanne |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:46 am |
| Thank you, John! |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:15 am |
| John C. Hill wrote: |
We have done occlusive testing on silicones to see just how much of a barrier ingredient they might be. We have found that silicones are not as occlusive as we had thought or anticipated. Therefore, they don't create as much of a barrier as you would think.
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John-I am going to ask this question here since it is about silicones. I use a C serum that is in a silicone base and therefore apply it to bare skin and apply my moisturizer over it. I have been wondering, would the silicones prevent any of the beneficial ingredients in my moisturizer from being absorbed by my skin? Would it depend on the type of silicones? If the answer to the second question is yes then I will post the silicones being used to see what you say.
Thanks. |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:09 am |
Hi Miss Theresa, thank you for your post and I appreciate your experiment!
The issue of silicones is not only one of build - up and silicones are by no means the only issue with what builds up by a long shot...
Jumping ball and tiger_tim - I agree!
John - I am very excited about the ethyl macadamiate, you all are doing some terrific work.
Everyone reviews data, collects experiences and results from customers, double blind trials etc - and makes a call. Many of us with a medical background draw on our knowledge and experience as well. Many Plastic Surgeons, Dermatologists, RNs, Estheticians, even Pathologists (especially Dermato Pathologists who look at skin), cosmetic and bio chemists hold the opinion I hold.
John can tell you when you put together a product line you have a world of options. As a RN, the health of our customers is important to me; my family and I are also consumers too! The more I researched, the more it became clear to me that silicones create havoc and damage the skin. It also became clear there were other options, I chose those other options. Consumers have many choices in what product lines they use, to match the conclusions they arrive at after they review information. I happen to think choice is a good thing! Thank you! Amy |
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Thank you for your time, sending many blessings in life. | President NaturDerm, Inc. / Greatnewskin |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:10 am |
Well the answer to your question is that it does indeed depend on the type of silicone. Some of them can be volatile, which means they will evaporate out of the product after it is used. This is the type used in foundations and pressed powder makeup and the like and the function is for ease of spreading and then evaporating off to just leave the pigments behind. Some silicones are meant to protect by covereage. A lot of the long lasting lip glosses use silicones like this. They are not volatile, can be a little "heavy" feeling, and they remain in place, thus protecting the pigment on the lips, which is usually a "staining pigment"....which further leads to the long lasting color.
So, if you can list the silicones you are talking about, I can give you more to this answer.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:16 am |
| Hi John, great point - and there are past hundreds of silicones, each with different characteristics, each acting in a different way in a formulation! It is a world - that is for certian! Amy |
_________________
Thank you for your time, sending many blessings in life. | President NaturDerm, Inc. / Greatnewskin |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:20 am |
John here is the ingredient list for the C serum:
Cyclomethicone, ascorbic acid, tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate, polysilicone-11, phytantrirol, ethoxydiglycol, bisabolol, tocopheryl acetate, tocopherol.
Thanks. |
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Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:20 am |
Amy, I'll tell you why I became so passionate about skin care myself. I am a competitive bodybuilder and have competed from 1996 through 2000, and will probably compete again next year. Bodybuilders like to get as tan as possible to show the muscle definition under the harsh stage lighting. I live in Arizona so I could tan virtually year-round, plus I hit the tanning beds too. I got so dark, it looked like I was from another race (no slur intended).
BUT, I virtually gave myself skin cancer! In late May of 2000 I had a weird looking mole removed from the outside of my right ankle. One week later the doctor called back and said, "John, we have to do some things in a hurry!". Well, if that doesn't scare you nothing will! I had Melanoma, level T-3. There are only 5 levels, which is the measure of the depth it has reached in the skin. If you are at level 4 or 5 about all you can do is write your will, 'cause it is game over!
The doctors did a wide area excision, which means they cut a baseball sized area of skin away from my ankle and used a skin graft from my butt to cover the missing area. I had to sit in a chair for the entire month of June, 24/7, without moving or the skin graft would not take. Now that was torture! Plus, when I finally did get up and try to walk, the muscles in my legs had atrophied, and I fell face first on the first step! I couldn't even walk right. To make the long story short, that was more than 5 years ago, and I have been proven to be cancer free. We got it just in time.
So now, I am very passionate about my skin! I try to do EVERYTHING right for my skin now including using lotions, sunscreens, avoiding the sun (using my Self-Tanning Spray which I was very motivated to produce!), and NEVER using tanning beds again. I also try to learn as much as possible about the skin, and any breakthroughs that are found concerning health of the skin.
...little bit of history for ya...
John |
_________________
President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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