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Sat May 26, 2007 2:39 pm  |
Since summer is around the corner, and sunscreen rec threads seem to be on the rise, I wanted to clarify an issue that has been circulating around these forums for years and keeps getting addressed over and over but still causes confusion.
Okay, here goes:
MOST US-manufactured sunscreens provide mostly UVB protection, meaning the UVB rays that TAN our skins and produce melanin. They do NOT protect well against UVA rays, which are those that AGE us and cause SKIN CANCER. So the favorites such as Skinceuticals, DDF, Solbar, Juice Beauty, and even the Sofina SS from Japan are not really protecting our skin against the harm that concerns us most. Or in other words, since we tend to equate a TAN with DAMAGE, we think that pale skin is an indicator of protection. WHICH IS, ACCORDING TO MANY POSTERS WHO HAVE DONE A GREAT DEAL OF RESEARCH ON THIS FORUM, NOT TRUE!
**Which means, in turn, that we've been suffering all year-long with a wan pallor underneath our mineral makeup in VAIN!!!!**
Is this true? Do we all concur?
I currently reside in Paris and thus have been liberally sampling the European sunscreens that combine both physical and stable chemical sunscreens. They are, texture wise, by no means ideal. But I'm hoping that they protect my skin better than the all-physical sunscreens.
Also, some people have reported getting a mild tan with the Euro Sunscreens, which, if we are to go with the aforementioned theory that tan skin does not necessarily indicate level of protection, is that perhaps not such a big deal? It appears that the Euros don't have such high percentages of physical sunscreen in them, so perhaps that is why we report getting tan. BUT they boast the highest possible UVA protection via the stability of the SS' chemical composition--therefore our skin is BETTER PROTECTED even though we are getting slightly tan?
All thoughts and clarifications welcome...
--avalange
p.s. I'm referring to Avene's newly reformulated SS above in the Euro category. |
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http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Sat May 26, 2007 2:53 pm |
I too have heard that it is the UVB rays which cause sun damage, etc... So...it sounds like you might be on to something.  |
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44, very fair and sensitive skin, blond/blue, using Obagi, live in Chicago (western suburbs) |
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Sat May 26, 2007 2:55 pm |
| avalange wrote: |
MOST US-manufactured sunscreens provide mostly UVA protection, meaning the UVA rays that TAN our skins and produce melanin. They do NOT protect well against UVB rays, which are those that AGE us and cause SKIN CANCER.
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I think they switched UVA and UVB - this is how I remember: A for Aging, B for Buring. Most sunscreen protected against sunburn from the UVB rays, but hardly shielded the skin against depletion of immune protection caused by UVA rays unless they contain one of these ingredients: titanium dioxide, zinc oxide, or avobenzone. |
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Sat May 26, 2007 7:27 pm |
| I thought UVB (SPF) is for tanning and UVA (PPD) is for ageing too. Maybe you got the two mixed up avalange? |
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26 with dehydrated combo skin, prone to blackheads and congestions, NC20-25 |
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Sat May 26, 2007 7:45 pm |
Both UVA and UVB are bad.
Think of it like:
UVB = Skin Cancer.
UVA = Wrinkles.
Most US sunscreens block UVB better than UVA. SPF refers to the UVB protection a product has, for example SPF 15 gives you 15 times more sun protection than your skin would normally have from being burned.
Basically you want a sunscreen that says "broad spectrum" and includes avebenzone (Parsol 1789), zinc oxide, or titanium dioxide. Helioplex, that Neutrogena uses, keeps up a higher UVA defense for longer since it's a stabilized version of avebenzone.
The FDA did recently approve mexoryl SX, which has been used in Europe for a while, but L'oreal has it patented w/ La Roche-Posey's moisturizer Anthelios SX, and Lancôme's water-resistant UV Expert 20 face and body cream.
That's it for FDA approved UVA protectors. |
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25, very fair, dry/sensitive, mild rosacea, otherwise good skin! |
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Sat May 26, 2007 11:53 pm |
From what I know (due to reading on EDS and other sites) UVB causes tanning/burning and UVA leads to aging. Not sure about the skin cancer part but imho strong UVB OR UVA rays would probably influence that anyways, so I'd probably attribute both types of rays to causing skin cancer. SPF specifies UVB protection and not UVA - that's what PPD or PA is for. Physical sunscreens offer both UVB and UVA protection (thus broad spectrum) but they do not offer a high PPD which means that although they provide UVA protection they may not be sufficient protection if you live in a place with very high UV-levels especially in the summer. Also physical ss that only uses TiO is not very efficient at blocking UVA rays as ZnO is better at blocking a certain length of UVA rays. I think TiO is more efficient at blocking long-wave UVA and ZnO at short-wave UVA (although I may have mixed them up) but in the end you need both ingredients for an actual efficient physical ss. European sunscreens which have ingredients like Mexoryl or Tinosorb has been proved by various scientific research (or those that I've read) that they provide better UVA protection than those with only physical ingredients. However I'm not sure how well they protect against UVB rays as Euro SS seems to have TiO/ZnO lower down in the list so that may be why there is tanning with regards to Euro SS.
I'm not sure if I'm 100% correct but this is what I have deduced from reading up on sunscreens. I hope this does clarify things for some people and if I'm wrong I hope someone who knows more can come in to correct me  |
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Sun May 27, 2007 2:47 am |
Hi All,
Whoops! I did have a dyslexic moment there. I think I should be allowed to edit the original post, since I don't want to spread confusion... Perhaps Mabsy can edit it for me? Ideas?
But if we switch them back to what they are supposed to be, the same issues stand...
For example, here's an exchange between some EDS users and Molly, who is very knowledgeable about SS, from a few months ago:
| Quote: |
I'm beginning to get a bit frusterated. I've been dealing with fine lines and now I'm beginning to get what looks like age spots. Sad I've used chemical sunblocks for over 10 yrs. Now I'm using Shiseido SPF 55. I'm confused o physical sunblocks not really block the skin from uv rays? What should I look for and in all honesty, how do they measure PPD? Should I look for another sunscreen? Sorry about all this but I want to make sure I'm protecting my skin as much as I can.
The fact that I'm only 34 makes this harder to take. Thanks
Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:29 pm
Hi SCF,
Physical sunscreens do block UVB rays, but are comparatively ineffective at blocking UVA rays. Those are the rays responsible for sunspots, aging/wrinkling of the skin. If you haven't yet read Kathleen's article (subject of this thread), I highly recommend it as it explains these concepts quite well. I do understand your frustration as I go through bouts of that myself. My own typical version of it is "Why aren't the high PPD sunscreens truly matte???" What's up with that? Confused
Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:42 pm
OK, at this point I'm not only BAFFLED by all this information, but BUMMED. All these years I've been wearing sunscreen, day in, day out ... was it completely useless?? SPF moisturizer with (supposedly) broad spectrum protection - but was it doing anything at all? Was it just breaking down & damaging my skin? I don't wear makeup - is that the only factor in the chemical breakdown? Confused
Seriously, I think I'm just going to become one of those women I see walking around town with a wide brimmed hat, scarf, face mask, gloves, long sleeves, long pants - AND a sun umbrella! Razz
Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:48 am
Montrealgal - this is the closest to a list of PPDs I've come across.
http://makeupalley.com/user/notepad/sunscreens
Purpleturtle - your physical sunscreen *would* keep you free of freckles because it protects against UVB extremely well (I sometimes feel better than the euro ss). You need UVB radiation to release melanin - the UVA radiation then oxidises it to turn it brown. No UVB no tan, no freckles, but long term UVA aging type damage.
Hi Skincarefreak - the physical screens do protect against UVA, but only achieve 8-10PPD (including the Shiseido). You do need to find something better for anti-aging IMHO. You can see from MUA/Kathleen's site/searching here what the most popular and reliable euro SS are.
Basically most people on EDS who use the Euro's tend to use either LaRochePosay Anthelios or Avene (possibly because of the Bad Bird's recommendations last year).
Bluebell - please don't get paranoid Wink nor stop enjoying your life. These SPF moisturisers do have some benefits. They'll protect you a bit - it's not all bad. Just, now you're better informed you can up your protection a bit. |
This is what is worrisome to me and to others--that daily use of sunscreens, while preventing tanning, is not preventing aging. I'm still so unsure about which sunscreen to bring to the beach... I've been eyeing those 100% sun protective cloth parasols in France--they are SOOOO gorgeous, but expensive!
--avalange |
_________________
http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Sun May 27, 2007 3:02 am |
| Wanted to throw in my own personal opinion on the subject: I think that those SS listed are not ineffective and we have not been using them in vain. I believe you do get protection from them just not the MAXIMUM protection AVAILABLE. Using Sofina or any other sunscreens is obviously better than using nothing. The idea to me is similar to using an ss with SPF 50 vs an ss with SPF 30. Does it mean you are not getting protection from the SPF 30? No, you are just getting less protection. But a lot of people can get enough protection from the SPF 30 and don't even need the SPF 50 because they are less prone to burning/tanning/pigmentation. Similarly, a lot of people might haave wonderful genes and don't even need the highest maximum UVA protection that is available and can get similar preventative results with using a regular physical ss. Of course you'd want stronger protection according to your skincare routine as well like if you're using acids or something that may cause your skin to be extra sun-sensitive. Like I mentioned in another thread there are so many Asians I've seen who lives in tropical climates, have never worn sunscreen in their life and barely have wrinkles at 50. To me theory is always different from the application and particularly with skincare we are all so individualistic that it is difficult to really offer a clear cut answer to such issues. Moreover, we are looking at the preventative - so when I'm 40-50, I'm cannot be sure how much difference it will make to my wrinkles at that time by changing my sunscreen now because we cannot look forward in time and cannot go back in time. Just my 2 cents. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 3:31 am |
| sormuimui wrote: |
| Wanted to throw in my own personal opinion on the subject: I think that those SS listed are not ineffective and we have not been using them in vain. I believe you do get protection from them just not the MAXIMUM protection AVAILABLE. Using Sofina or any other sunscreens is obviously better than using nothing. The idea to me is similar to using an ss with SPF 50 vs an ss with SPF 30. Does it mean you are not getting protection from the SPF 30? No, you are just getting less protection. But a lot of people can get enough protection from the SPF 30 and don't even need the SPF 50 because they are less prone to burning/tanning/pigmentation. Similarly, a lot of people might haave wonderful genes and don't even need the highest maximum UVA protection that is available and can get similar preventative results with using a regular physical ss. Of course you'd want stronger protection according to your skincare routine as well like if you're using acids or something that may cause your skin to be extra sun-sensitive. Like I mentioned in another thread there are so many Asians I've seen who lives in tropical climates, have never worn sunscreen in their life and barely have wrinkles at 50. To me theory is always different from the application and particularly with skincare we are all so individualistic that it is difficult to really offer a clear cut answer to such issues. Moreover, we are looking at the preventative - so when I'm 40-50, I'm cannot be sure how much difference it will make to my wrinkles at that time by changing my sunscreen now because we cannot look forward in time and cannot go back in time. Just my 2 cents. |
Sormuimui,
Point taken, but you kind of missed the gist of what I was trying to convey: of course no ss can offer perfect protection, only staying out of the sun will do that. But merely buying a sunscreen and wearing it everyday doesn't mean that it will protect us from aging and skin cancer. For example, those using a cheap drugstore ss with parsol 1789 for many years will be very unhappy to know that it degrades almost immediately upon reaction with the sun's very rays. In my opinion that is a worthless sunscreen. As well, those using physical ss might not be getting tan, but are not protected from the rays that cause most cumulative aging and skin cancers. So, we have so many choices out there, but some are certainly wiser than others. As a woman entering her 30s with the first signs of sun damage, I'm a little more concerned about making the wisest choice than when I was 21--when I couldn't even envision what it would be like to age. My good friend (also 31 yrs o) also just had two melanomas removed from her face and she has used neutrogena ss for 10 years. So the point of my post was to make sure people out there understand that even though they are using ss, it might not be offering them the protection they believe they are getting. No one wants to learn after the fact that our sunscreen investment had no returns after all. If, in 10 years, you see age spots and other signs of premature aging, won't you be a little upset that you didn;t choose a proper sunscreen? or will you say, "ah, well, I'm sure it protected me a little bit... whatever!" The spf ratings are done in terms of exposure, not effectiveness, so choosing in terms of effectiveness is indeed a valid and in my own humble opinion, pressing matter.
--avalange |
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http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Sun May 27, 2007 4:04 am |
Thanks for clarifying, I did interpret your initial post incorrectly
Perhaps there should be a sticky on sunscreens and have all the relevant sunscreen posts linked in that sticky. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 7:36 am |
Actually Ava, I think it's the reverse: UVB causes (B)urning and UVA causes (A)ging. That's how I remember it anyway.
The US s/s do a decent job of protecting against UVB (I'm very fair but have NO tan lines at all even though I'm outside with my kids a lot). They are sorely lacking, however, in anti-aging protection.
I thought I had the "perfect" s/s with the Bioderma but you posted about a month ago that you got a tan with it in "Paris in the spring" (  ) Have you found any new euro s/s that you feel do it all yet? Keep me posted! |
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46, curly dk blonde hair, fair, blue eyes, very oily T-zone. HGs: Tazorac .05% gel; Avene/Bioderma s/s (very high spf AND ppd); Cellbone vit Cie 20%; Cellbone Hyperpeptides; IFP 5% bha/10% aha; Obagi Clear; 'curly girl' method (no poo, just co wash) for my 3b curls. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 7:46 am |
In regards to the recent FDA approval of mexoryl SX and L'Oreal/LRP in the US - it only offers a ppd of 10 
I am currently deciding on buying a hat (or 2 ) from shadylady.com to wear outside/at the pool/etc. The WSJ just did a piece about sunhats and reviews for a few on Friday 5/25.
Also, since our pool opens to non-lesson swimmers after 12:30 (I know, what a pain), I usually take my kids there sometime after 3pm to avoid the harshest rays. It really does make a difference and I only have to apply s/s (and hear their complaints about it) only once. We often have dinner there, shower, then home.
I'm one who has learned so much about s/s from all of the extremely knowledgeable people here. I'm willing to have a white-ish cast to my face from a s/s - the alternative (cancer) is much worse. |
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46, curly dk blonde hair, fair, blue eyes, very oily T-zone. HGs: Tazorac .05% gel; Avene/Bioderma s/s (very high spf AND ppd); Cellbone vit Cie 20%; Cellbone Hyperpeptides; IFP 5% bha/10% aha; Obagi Clear; 'curly girl' method (no poo, just co wash) for my 3b curls. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 10:44 am |
We're not arguing, so there's not much to put to rest.
I disagree with several things Paula says in that article, and it's that very kind of downplaying of the uva issue that made me want to post this thread in the first place. she recommends her own sunscreen, which, according to the ingredients, won't protect that well against exposure or aging issues...
in any case, Paula's rubric on ss is not definitive by any means...
--avalange |
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http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Sun May 27, 2007 11:05 am |
Take it with a grain of salt but it looks like the jury is still out on when exactly Avebenzone breaks down still:
http://www.cosmeticscop.com/learn/art.asp?ID=261
She does quote several studies, which I find handy for googling. Lol.
Last time I was in Walgreens they had a display of Neutrogena Helioplex sunscreens with a pamplet on the PPD for some common sunscreens, and I remember that the one I use most often has a PPD of like... lol 2 or something.  So sad.
I'm currently shopping online for a wide-brimmed hat.  If you see a super-cute one somewhere feel free to PM me the link!! |
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25, very fair, dry/sensitive, mild rosacea, otherwise good skin! |
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Sun May 27, 2007 11:36 am |
| Harmonster wrote: |
Take it with a grain of salt but it looks like the jury is still out on when exactly Avebenzone breaks down still:
http://www.cosmeticscop.com/learn/art.asp?ID=261
She does quote several studies, which I find handy for googling. Lol.
Last time I was in Walgreens they had a display of Neutrogena Helioplex sunscreens with a pamplet on the PPD for some common sunscreens, and I remember that the one I use most often has a PPD of like... lol 2 or something. So sad.
I'm currently shopping online for a wide-brimmed hat. If you see a super-cute one somewhere feel free to PM me the link!! |
Hmm, now I think this woman is seriously off her rocker. I pulled up "photostabilite" in French, the first article is a wikipedia article talking about which chemicals are and which are not. Avobenzone, on the list, is listed as "not." Also, here is the stub on avobenzone in English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avobenzone , which lists at least 3 sources for its relative instability.
And if you do a search on google with photostability and avobenzone, there are loads and loads of articles, mainly from scientific sources, on new ways of stabilizing it...
thanks for posting that, harmonster. wonder which planet she's living on to assert that there was one random study done and nothing else, ever, that scientifically proved avobenzone's instability!
--avalange |
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http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Sun May 27, 2007 11:42 am |
| avalange wrote: |
thanks for posting that, harmonster. wonder which planet she's living on to assert that there was one random study done and nothing else, ever, that scientifically proved avobenzone's instability!
--avalange |
The planet that has avebenzone listed as an ingredient in her skincare formulations.
C'mon now, you know how this works! Lol |
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25, very fair, dry/sensitive, mild rosacea, otherwise good skin! |
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Sun May 27, 2007 11:55 am |
| How this woman thinks is beyond me..years ago when avo. was first touted as the 'best' for protection, she refused to even consider putting it in her formulations because it was proven to cause sensitivity issues. She couldn't badmouth it enough. The minute the FDA approved it, in it went |
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Sun May 27, 2007 12:29 pm |
| I, too, am somewhat skeptical (sp?) about Paula ever since I read in its entirety he "Don't go the cosmetics counter w/o me" book several yrs ago. She seemed knowledgeable but then went on to complain about 90% of the products, except her own of course, in the marketplace |
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46, curly dk blonde hair, fair, blue eyes, very oily T-zone. HGs: Tazorac .05% gel; Avene/Bioderma s/s (very high spf AND ppd); Cellbone vit Cie 20%; Cellbone Hyperpeptides; IFP 5% bha/10% aha; Obagi Clear; 'curly girl' method (no poo, just co wash) for my 3b curls. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 12:40 pm |
| Harmonster wrote: |
I'm currently shopping online for a wide-brimmed hat. If you see a super-cute one somewhere feel free to PM me the link!! |
Harmonster - I'm currently looking at several on shadylady.com. HTH. |
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46, curly dk blonde hair, fair, blue eyes, very oily T-zone. HGs: Tazorac .05% gel; Avene/Bioderma s/s (very high spf AND ppd); Cellbone vit Cie 20%; Cellbone Hyperpeptides; IFP 5% bha/10% aha; Obagi Clear; 'curly girl' method (no poo, just co wash) for my 3b curls. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 1:22 pm |
| avalange wrote: |
We're not arguing, so there's not much to put to rest.
I disagree with several things Paula says in that article, and it's that very kind of downplaying of the uva issue that made me want to post this thread in the first place. she recommends her own sunscreen, which, according to the ingredients, won't protect that well against exposure or aging issues...
in any case, Paula's rubric on ss is not definitive by any means...
--avalange |
As long as you wear a sunscreen with the active ingredients you'll be protected against aging. Not all SSs will protect you 100% and labels can be misleading. If they don't say avobenzone, titanium dioxide or zinc oxide, I wouldn't buy it. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 2:04 pm |
| tsjmom wrote: |
| Harmonster wrote: |
I'm currently shopping online for a wide-brimmed hat. If you see a super-cute one somewhere feel free to PM me the link!! |
Harmonster - I'm currently looking at several on shadylady.com. HTH. |
Oh gosh these are cute! Btw, it's shadyladyproducts.com for anyone else who wants to look. I typed in the other and got some weird stuff, so ended up googling it. |
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25, very fair, dry/sensitive, mild rosacea, otherwise good skin! |
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Sun May 27, 2007 2:32 pm |
[quote="Harmonster"]
| tsjmom wrote: |
| Harmonster wrote: |
I'm currently shopping online for a wide-brimmed hat. If you see a super-cute one somewhere feel free to PM me the link!! |
Harmonster - I'm currently looking at several on shadylady.com. HTH. |
Oh gosh these are cute! Btw, it's shadyladyproducts.com for anyone else who wants to look. I typed in the other and got some weird stuff, so ended up googling it. [/
quote]
Thanks for correcting me Harmonster. I'm not very "computer savvy" yet  BTW at which ones are you looking? I'm interested in "Eden" b/d it comes in several colors and "New Attitude" for it's wide brim and buckle accent! |
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46, curly dk blonde hair, fair, blue eyes, very oily T-zone. HGs: Tazorac .05% gel; Avene/Bioderma s/s (very high spf AND ppd); Cellbone vit Cie 20%; Cellbone Hyperpeptides; IFP 5% bha/10% aha; Obagi Clear; 'curly girl' method (no poo, just co wash) for my 3b curls. |
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Sun May 27, 2007 2:39 pm |
I'm going to shop around town first, though, before I fork out $45 and who knows how much shipping. |
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25, very fair, dry/sensitive, mild rosacea, otherwise good skin! |
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Mon May 28, 2007 8:03 am |
For those of you in the US, QVC sells several wide brimmed hats. I tried to post the link to the page, but for some reason, it just brings up the home page.
If anyone is interested just go to qvc.com and type "sun hats" in the search field. |
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