Avene Retrinal 0.1 vs. Leaf & Rusher active serum
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free skin care · Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:36 pm

Hi,
what do you think - how can these 2 be compared as to the strength of the active ingredient and effectiveness on fine lines & anti-aging? :

Avene Retrinal 0.1% retinaldehyde
Leaf & Rusher active serum 2% retinol

anybody has an experience in using any of them?
what were your results?

what can be other suggestions for the strongest OTC vit.A product?
thanks! Smile

free skin care · Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:02 pm

I'm not using retinol yet, but the PSF ones seem like good products, since they also have other good things in the formulas. I was just looking at them. They have all-trans retinol and they're saying that it has a high conversion rate, so it's an effective form.

Aiva wrote:

Hi,
what do you think - how can these 2 be compared as to the strength of the active ingredient and effectiveness on fine lines & anti-aging? :

Avene Retrinal 0.1% retinaldehyde
Leaf & Rusher active serum 2% retinol

anybody has an experience in using any of them?
what were your results?

what can be other suggestions for the strongest OTC vit.A product?
thanks! Smile

free skin care · Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:37 pm

I've been using the Leaf & Rusher Active Serum for more than a year and I love it. You can see my previous posts on Leaf & Rusher if you search for them. I haven't tried other retinol products so I can't do a comparison though...

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:04 am

thank you Nimue and lunarmm! Smile

I will do a search on Leaf & Rusher

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:51 am

Hi, Aiva. The Leaf & Rusher Active serum contains vit C as well as retinol, and these two agents have been shown to work very well together.

On the other hand, the retinaldehyde (as in Avene) might be more effective than retinol. Retinaldehyde only needs to undergo one conversion step before becoming retinoic acid, as opposed to retinol, that needs at least two conversion steps.

I believe both are very good products.

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:06 am

Septembergirl wrote:

Hi, Aiva. The Leaf & Rusher Active serum contains vit C as well as retinol, and these two agents have been shown to work very well together.

On the other hand, the retinaldehyde (as in Avene) might be more effective than retinol. Retinaldehyde only needs to undergo one conversion step before becoming retinoic acid, as opposed to retinol, that needs at least two conversion steps.

I believe both are very good products.

Hi Septembergirl Smile

in fact I`m interested how their strengths can be compared. That is - what is stronger (and more effective) - 0.1% retinaldehyde or 2% retinol, considering retinaldehyde needs to undergo 1 conversion step while retinol - at least 2 as you wrote, and considering the percentages of both Confused

as for vit.C, I will use a separate serum in the a.m. and won`t be in need of some extra in the p.m. Another case, if vit.C has synergistic effect on retinol in Leaf & Rusher serum, intensifying it`s effectiveness Confused

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:09 am

btw, I`m still not near Retin-A. I`ve decided to go retinol/retinaldehyde route Rolling Eyes

I`m still using Avene Diacneal but in search for the strongest OTC product without acid.

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:43 am

Another suggestion. I don't know how strong it is, but I think that the 302 A-boost is gentle and non acidic. Something else to look into. A lot of ladies here have had really good success with 302, and it's surprisingly reasonable priced. It's about a quarter of the price of the leaf and rusher one for the same amount and costs about the same as PSF.

http://www.21st-centuryskincare.com/a-boost.htm

Aiva wrote:

btw, I`m still not near Retin-A. I`ve decided to go retinol/retinaldehyde route Rolling Eyes

I`m still using Avene Diacneal but in search for the strongest OTC product without acid.

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:03 am

Nimue wrote:

Another suggestion. I don't know how strong it is, but I think that the 302 A-boost is gentle and non acidic. Something else to look into. A lot of ladies here have had really good success with 302, and it's surprisingly reasonable priced. It's about a quarter of the price of the leaf and rusher one for the same amount and costs about the same as PSF.

http://www.21st-centuryskincare.com/a-boost.htm

Aiva wrote:

btw, I`m still not near Retin-A. I`ve decided to go retinol/retinaldehyde route Rolling Eyes

I`m still using Avene Diacneal but in search for the strongest OTC product without acid.

thanks for suggestion Nimue Smile

"without acid" - I meant that Diacneal contains 6% glycolic acid added to the retinaldehyde. I didn`t mean that I`m agaisnt acidic retinol/retinoic acid. Sorry if it was misleading.
As for the 302 line, it should be used exclusively, right? and there are soo many products! can`t resist the temptation Laughing

what I`m looking for now is as strong vit.A product as possible but not Retin-A.
but I might want to try 302 in the future Smile

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:21 am

I remember at one time Kinerrase (sp?) was supposed to be a good retinol product. I want to start using retinol too. I do have retin a which I use 2-3 times a week and thought the retinol would be good on the other nights.

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:59 am

Aiva wrote:

thanks for suggestion Nimue Smile

"without acid" - I meant that Diacneal contains 6% glycolic acid added to the retinaldehyde. I didn`t mean that I`m agaisnt acidic retinol/retinoic acid. Sorry if it was misleading.
As for the 302 line, it should be used exclusively, right? and there are soo many products! can`t resist the temptation Laughing

what I`m looking for now is as strong vit.A product as possible but not Retin-A.
but I might want to try 302 in the future Smile

I think that as long the rest of your skin care regime is compatible with 302 it should be ok- if you don't use acids, or at least minimal acids. (Not that I'm at all qualified to give an opinion on 302 Razz

)

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:00 am

bodiukein wrote:

I remember at one time Kinerrase (sp?) was supposed to be a good retinol product. I want to start using retinol too. I do have retin a which I use 2-3 times a week and thought the retinol would be good on the other nights.

sorry, I haven`t found any Kinerase retinol product Confused

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:12 am

interesting enough, the Leaf & Rusher line, founded by 2 doctors, also practises "non-acidic" approach, however they are only against AHAs:

Non-Acid Advantage: Unique skin care products containing none of the alpha hydroxy acids that can thin the skin and leave it irreversibly damaged.

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:17 am

also of interest - their (well-known) skincare basics:
http://www.leafandrusher.com/images/press/rachel-ray.jpg

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:20 am

Aiva wrote:

interesting enough, the Leaf & Rusher line, founded by 2 doctors, also practises "non-acidic" approach, however they are only against AHAs:

Non-Acid Advantage: Unique skin care products containing none of the alpha hydroxy acids that can thin the skin and leave it irreversibly damaged.

so I think I should quit my Diacneal with glycolic acid as soon as possible Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:13 am

As long as retinaldehyde is regarded as being more effective than retinol, I find it weird that Avene is one of the very few that make use of retinaldehyde in their products. The vast majority of OTC vitamin A products contains retinol and retinyl palmitate.

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:20 am

Septembergirl wrote:

As long as retinaldehyde is regarded as being more effective than retinol, I find it weird that Avene is one of the very few that make use of retinaldehyde in their products. The vast majority of OTC vitamin A products contains retinol and retinyl palmitate.

Avene claims to have clinical research on their retinaldehyde, might it be the case that they simply have exclusive rights on using this ingredient?

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 am

Osmosis uses retinaldehyde. I think I remember the founder guy mentioning in one of his product videos that they are using it "now that it is available" in the U.S. --- or something like that.

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:39 am

Septembergirl wrote:

As long as retinaldehyde is regarded as being more effective than retinol, I find it weird that Avene is one of the very few that make use of retinaldehyde in their products. The vast majority of OTC vitamin A products contains retinol and retinyl palmitate.

I also find it weird that the highest 0.1% of retinaldehyde in Avene products is not available in Europe (without added glycolic acid). The one made for Europe is 0.5% Eluage or 0.5% Estheal. why is that??? Confused

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:47 am

shelly wrote:

Osmosis uses retinaldehyde. I think I remember the founder guy mentioning in one of his product videos that they are using it "now that it is available" in the U.S. --- or something like that.

Shelly thank you for the suggestion Smile

I went to see the video and read about the product. The product is called Osmosis Renew and contains:
Phosphatidylcholine
Purified Water
MSM
Xantham Gum
Tangerine Essential Oil
Lemon Essential Oil
Sweet Orange Essential Oil
Clove Essential Oil
Glycerin
Niacinamide
Argirilene
1,3 Beta Glucan
Chlorella
GHK Copper Peptides
R-Lipoic Acid
Epidermal Growth Factor
Retinaldehyde(.113%)

what I like here is the high % of retinaldehyde and added Niacinamide. What I don`t like however is Argireline and Copper Peptides. I would prefer to stay away from copper peptides at all and would put argireline on some "problematic" areas say 11s lines or crows feet, but not all over my face! Shock

also donnow what all these citrus oils are here for, and donnow anything about long time use of Epidermal Growth Factor.
so it sounds rather contradictory for me Confused

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:55 am

oh, and the founder guy said in his video that l-ascorbic acid was "as guilty at creating damage to the skin, as AHAs...", as it does not stimulate collagen production, but rather causes inflammations in the skin which can be seen as more plump skin with softened lines Confused

so he casts thus doubt on all vit.C anti-aging concept... ??? Shock

free skin care · Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:07 pm

aiva,

I too thought twice about the copper peptides in some of the products. I'm primarily using the Clarify product which does not have the CP's but not sure about the EGF or Argirilene (peptide, right?). What are the concerns around regular use the EGF and the Argirilene???

I recall someone on the melasma board I frequent inquiring into their use of citrus oils in their "lightening" product and I think the story was they were for "scent" and they use a version that doesn't cause photosensitivity. A bit suspect is my opinion...

Not sure what their overall position is on C. I thought they used MAP in some products - I could be wrong - so maybe it's just the ascorbic acid form their not hot on????

free skin care · Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:14 am

shelly wrote:

aiva,

I too thought twice about the copper peptides in some of the products. I'm primarily using the Clarify product which does not have the CP's but not sure about the EGF or Argirilene (peptide, right?). What are the concerns around regular use the EGF and the Argirilene???

I recall someone on the melasma board I frequent inquiring into their use of citrus oils in their "lightening" product and I think the story was they were for "scent" and they use a version that doesn't cause photosensitivity. A bit suspect is my opinion...

Not sure what their overall position is on C. I thought they used MAP in some products - I could be wrong - so maybe it's just the ascorbic acid form their not hot on????

shelly,
Argireline is marketed as "topical botox" so what it does is preventing the topical muscles of the skin from contracting. Of course the strength of the effect cannot be compared to that of Botox even near, it is much milder and weaker. So while I would welcome a topical to prevent me from contracting between brows muscles to prevent 11s (between brows) lines, I would certainly not like the whole my face to be "relaxed" as it can/will cause sagging. The whole thing is not studied enough though, and there are happy users of say Alphaderma CE containing Argireline as well, but I wouldn`t dare to take a risk. Rolling Eyes

donnow much about EGF though Confused

so what I wanted to say is this Osmosis product contains some IMO suspect or unwanted ingredients so I would prefer not to use it. that`s - again - just my opinion.

free skin care · Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:40 am

The more I read about skin care ingredients and diet supplements, the more confused I get. Rolling Eyes

The results I get from using l-ascorbic acid serum and retinoids are so good that I am not going to give them up. The non-acids versions of vit A and C don't have similar scientific backing for their efficacy in skin care products.

Re. the Osmosis product:
I am not happy to see copper peptides, argireline and EGF.

free skin care · Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:36 pm

I was confused too Shock

but...
there is really strong scientific backing in vit.C`s - read l-ascorbic acid`s - abilities to help with UV protection and increase the effectiveness of a sunscreen. As well as research in it`s promotion of collagen production.
and... now we have the founder of Osmosis line opposing it Confused

while in that same line he uses such controversial and lacking in deep research ingredients as Copper Peptides, Argireline, EGF... there are other dermatologists opposing these ingredients...
it is the same line where he uses several citrus oils in his sunscreen, while citrus essential oils being phototoxic...

that said, I`m a bit sceptical of Osmosis line now Confused

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