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Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:52 am  |
| I'm almost finished my second bottle of 20% and wanted to try the C & E for (supposedly) better results and protection with the E. But, I've heard that it's very sticky. Can anyone who's used it tell me if an oily/combo skin will like it? Is is a lot sticker (oilier) than the 20%. Any good resluts with this -it's more expensive so I wanted to make sure I make the right decision and EDS never has samples of it. Thanks. |
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Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:45 pm |
The stickiness comes from the 5% laureth-4, AKA ethoxylated dodecyl alcohol, an emollient emulsifier. It seems a little unusual to see 5x as much emulsifier as oily active but in this case they probably used that much to not only emulsify but also adjust the pH upwards a little bit from the natural 2.0-2.5 of aqueous 15% C to get a final pH of 3.2.
The formulation could contain up to 15% alcohol as well.
Yes, the combination of C+E is much more protective than either one alone.
This is something you can make at home for about 1/10 of the price of the SkinCeuticals. Also, if you made it correctly and used it appropriately, you would be guaranteed a fresh product.
But, you don't have to use a product with the two combined in one. You could apply C alone first, wait 10-15 minutes, and then apply E. Or apply C in the AM and E in the PM.
I had only no results from SkinCeuticals. Even if the product is still active when you get it, it will rapidly deactivate upon opening. This is not a good deal for the price. |
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Mabsy
Moderator
 
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:06 am |
Marina - I've used both but I'm having trouble remembering how they compared. I didn't think that the C+E was overly sticky, but sticker than the rest.
Marika - how rapidly is rapidly? I have actually found that Vivier takes a good few months to darken and oxidise - even then it's still effective. Skinceuticals and Cellex-C tend to darken faster but this does not mean that it becomes totally ineffective, there's a decrease in effectiveness though. |
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 5:51 am |
I don't know what's in the Vivier. If it has a silicone oil base instead of a water base it will last longer--maybe as long as 3 months after opening, assuming that you get it while it's still fresh.
The SkinCeuticals is at best about 3 weeks, but the life depends on the age of the solution when you get it. I put a picture from the Pinnell stability patent showing the rate of loss of activity in my profile (user: Marika5) at MUA.
This is for a bottle that isn't opened. Under actual use conditions with exposure to more air each time the bottle is opened, the loss will occur more rapidly. Also, as the surface area of the solution of the bottle exposed to air within the bottle becomes a greater in proportion to the volume of the solution (i.e. you use it up), loss of activity proceeds more rapidly.
These should both be stored in the refrigerator for longer life. |
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:55 am |
| marika, I've had my skinceuticals for over 2 months and it still stings slightly even though the color is yellower. Does this mean it's still effective? That's what I assumed. I was also looking at the skinmedica vit.c which MUAers are raving about. I know this is more stable but again, I was wondering about the "oily" factor. I THINK it also contains vit E although the amount isn't stipulated. |
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:05 am |
The oxidized (breakdown product) of L-ascorbic acid, dehydro-L-ascorbic acid, is still acidic. The pH should not change much over time and you will still get some exfoliation effect.
What you lose is the most free radical scavenging ability and the collagen stimulating ability as well. Not all, but most (90%):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11754572
Some of the cosmetic improvement from topical L-ascorbic results from the acidity itself. The lower the pH, the more exfoliation. |
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:27 am |
o.k. NOW you have my attention since it's the collagen stimulating ability I'm after (a lot of products exfoliate). Which vit. c product would you recommend (other than the make-it-yourself one)? Also, Dermadoctor (dermadoctor.com), touts the Neova copper serum as having the same if not superior collagen stimulating abilities as the vit.c -the other advantage is -no oxidation problem. The reason I haven't tried it is -1 . I'm not certain about the "protection from free radicals"part and 2. It's very hard to use vit. c w/copper it would have to be one or the other. What's your opinion?  |
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:07 pm |
Marina,
I have no doubt that copper peptides have some collagen-stimulating ability.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11121126
But, I am very skeptical that current formulations are better topicals than an appropriately formulated L-ascorbic or tretinoin topical. Tretinoin and tazarotene are very effective stimulators of collagen formation, even more so than L-ascorbic acid.
Copper peptides have not been shown to protect from UV radiation damage and photocancers, as is the case for both L-ascorbic and vitamin A derivatives.
I believe that the data Neova (and dermadoctor) refers to is from a small private study that was not published in an established medical journal. It is easy to show superiority of one topical over another if you deliberately choose weak or otherwise ineffective versions as competition, and I feel that is the case with this particular study. I requested the details of this study from one vendor but the vendor was unable to provide them.
Meanwhile, more studies in established journals have proven the efficacy of L-ascorbic beyond a reasonable doubt. Also consider the body's daily requirement for C (about 60 mg/day is recommended, some suggest 100 mg/day) compared to copper (3 mg). You do need both. But, you need a lot more C.
My primary rec would be homemade, because this is such a delicate compound when in solution. It is easy to get into the habit of making it fresh in the morning, like brushing one's teeth.
Second choice would be a pre-made silicone-based formula with at least 15% concentration of L-ascorbic with some E and possibly a metal chelator.
If you want to use both, the safest way is to alternate weeks of each with a few days of rest in between. |
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:25 pm |
| Thank you for all your help. If possible, can you tell the recipe for the homemade solution or where to find it? Looks like second choice would be skinmedica vit. c which is silicone based ( 15% vit.c ) and has some (they don't say how much) vit.E.Unfortunately my skin dosen't do well with silicones and I found the Vivier too oily-feeling. I'm willing to try the homemade if it isn't too difficult. Again, thanks |
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Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:37 pm |
This will give you roughly 11% L-ascorbic at a pH of around 2.0.
1/8 tsp L-ascorbic acid (you can get this from your health food store: check labels or ask manufacturer to be sure it is 100% L- or you can order from a website such as http://www.makingcosmetics.com, but there are others).
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1 tsp distilled water
You could optionally use some alcohol or propylene glycol as part of your liquid measure; they are penetration enhancers.
Best is to use it all up at once, face, hands, neck, chest.
And hopefully, one of your daily topicals will include some E, preferrably tocopherol and/or tocotrienols instead of tocopherol acetate--your sunscreen or moisturizer, most likely.
It's more complicated to include E in your C solution but this is also doable. If you want them in the same topical, you will need an emulsifier, add a few drops to your E and mix together before combining with a C/water solution.
You can get laureth-4, the emulsifier that SkinCeuticals uses, here:
http://www.thepersonalformulator.com
If you don't have any E in your sunscreen or moisturizer you could consider adding a little and mixing together a small amount in a separate container.
The main thing is that both should be in your epidermis at the same time. This does not mean that they have to be applied in the same topical or even within a few hours. After a few days, both will be in your epidermis providing you with extra protection over either one alone. But, E has no collagen simulating ability as far as I know. |
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