For those REALLY knowledgeable on Retin-A, retinoids, help!
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Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:09 pm

I've been on Avene Eluage (.5%) for almost 5 months now. Am 47 yrs old. Just bumped up to their Retrinal (.1%) since Eluage has done nothing for my under eye lines but the rest of my face is fine with it. I am thinking of going to Tretinoin which i understand is a generic Retin-A.

I know retinoids take time to work but 5 months into it, i'm tired of waiting and wondering if i'm using something strong enough for my forehead, under eye wrinkles. And i really am lacking understanding about products, strengths, etc and what to do from here on out.

I NEVER had any problems with Eluage in the way of peeling, redness, irritation and really don't want to go that route but am tired of waiting for it to address the fine lines which is *WHY* i am using retinoids in the first place. (FWIW, i have rosacean, sensitive, normal to dry, very acne prone skin).

Any advice on any of this? Should i give the 1% Retrinal which i just started, time to work since it's essentially twice as strong as Eluage? Or Diacneal which i understand is cheaper and maybe better for acne but it's my under EYE area i'm mainly concerned about.

If this isn't strong enough, what should i do next? I'm talking about addressing esp under eye wrinkles. Thanks!!!

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:16 pm

Hi,

In my opinion, because you have rosacean/sensitive skin, you shouldn't bump up to tretinoin just yet. You could create a rosacea/sensitivity flare beyond anything you've seen before. Slow and steady for those of us with sensitive skin.

There's more than just a subtle difference in strength between Retrinal and the lowest dose of retin a. I know of some people with rosacea who can use retin a or even tazorac, but it's after a year or two of using something milder, and even then they have to buffer at first.

Results with retinoid products can be substantial, but they take a long, long time. You should stick with it a minimum of six months before determining whether it's right for you. When using retinoid products, think in terms of several months to a year before you see the lines fade. (Building collagen takes time.) That's the bad news. The good news is, they do work for the majority of people.

I bet your lines have improved, but since you see your face every day, you don't notice. Another thing to consider is that lines on the forehead and near the eyes are expression lines, so the retinoids take longer to work, since you're obviously going to keep making expressions. You have to keep smiling. Surprised

)

I know some people get a bit of botox fore the forehead/eyes to give the retinoids a better chance to work. That's a personal decision.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are many studies that show that redness and peeling are NOT necessarily signs that retinoids are working. So, despite how "good" it feels to see the peeling, it's not necessarily an indication of whether the products are doing their magic beneath the surface.

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:15 pm

TY!

I have decided to buy and go through a tube of Retrinal as it is in fact (if i'm reading correctly) twice as strong as Eluage. And KEEP waiting, LOL!!

Unless there is something the same as Retrinal for a lower price?

free skin care · Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:52 pm

susiek wrote:

I've been on Avene Eluage (.5%) for almost 5 months now. Am 47 yrs old. Just bumped up to their Retrinal (.1%) since Eluage has done nothing for my under eye lines but the rest of my face is fine with it. I am thinking of going to Tretinoin which i understand is a generic Retin-A.

I know retinoids take time to work but 5 months into it, i'm tired of waiting and wondering if i'm using something strong enough for my forehead, under eye wrinkles. And i really am lacking understanding about products, strengths, etc and what to do from here on out.

I NEVER had any problems with Eluage in the way of peeling, redness, irritation and really don't want to go that route but am tired of waiting for it to address the fine lines which is *WHY* i am using retinoids in the first place. (FWIW, i have rosacean, sensitive, normal to dry, very acne prone skin).

Any advice on any of this? Should i give the 1% Retrinal which i just started, time to work since it's essentially twice as strong as Eluage? Or Diacneal which i understand is cheaper and maybe better for acne but it's my under EYE area i'm mainly concerned about.

If this isn't strong enough, what should i do next? I'm talking about addressing esp under eye wrinkles. Thanks!!!

You are not using a retinoid, you are using Retinaldehyde, which is 1 step up from Retinol (both over the counter). Retinol has to convert to retinaldehyde and then to retinoic acid in your skin. With the retinaldehyde, you obviously skip one stage in the conversion. So, they say it takes a retinoid (AKA Retin A) up to 1 year of nightly use to produce the maximum results a person is going to have. (Some see results sooner, but I would say not sooner than 6 months in our age range. A person in their 20's could potentially have results sooner than that.) I would say the time for results would be much longer using a retinol or retinaldehyde. Then again, for the majority of people, the retinol or retinaldehyde products don't cause the redness, flaking that the Retin A does.

Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:39 pm

TY Rileygirl.

Well i am 47 and i'm going to continue the results of aging if i don't step it up from Eluage which has been very nice for my skin, rosacea and all, but not in the way of diminishing lines.

I'm thinking of trying Renova .025%, i am assuming this will be a big jump from Eluage and even Retrinal. Would this logically be the way to go? What product would be a jump to a retinoid but would potentially have the least S/E?

I looked at medsmex.com to buy Renova .025% cheaply but their shipping is somewhat prohibitive!!

Thanks for any and all help!

free skin care · Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:57 pm

susiek wrote:

TY Rileygirl.

Well i am 47 and i'm going to continue the results of aging if i don't step it up from Eluage which has been very nice for my skin, rosacea and all, but not in the way of diminishing lines.

I'm thinking of trying Renova .025%, i am assuming this will be a big jump from Eluage and even Retrinal. Would this logically be the way to go? What product would be a jump to a retinoid but would potentially have the least S/E?

I looked at medsmex.com to buy Renova .025% cheaply but their shipping is somewhat prohibitive!!

Thanks for any and all help!

If you have access to a dermatologist or a skin-friendly GP, the best option would be for her/him to write you a script to get tretinoin compounded in the pharmacy. In that way you can start with low concentrations (0.005%) and go up slowly. Also the compounded tretinoin is relatively cheap.

If not I guess you could try using the 0.025% but not every day and being very vigilant of irritation or any sign of rosacea. I would also use tretinoin, wait a couple of hours and then put something emollient and anti-inflammatory before going to bed.

All the best,
Josee

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:00 am

Hi, I have retin-a 0.025% cream and it doesn't make my skin peel at all. Is this dose too low? I'm trying to bleach out brown spots on my cheeks.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:13 am

FYI, 0.025% is half the strength of 0.05% the next strength is 0.1%.

If you have rosacea, I would start with 0.025% and apply every other day and see how your skin reacts.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:36 am

Bira wrote:

Hi, I have retin-a 0.025% cream and it doesn't make my skin peel at all. Is this dose too low? I'm trying to bleach out brown spots on my cheeks.

I'm sure the more knowledgeable people here will be able to answer this more thoroughly (and properly!) but I "think" that if you are only applying 0.025% for hyperpigmentation you have a LONGGG way to go.

You might try adding some bleaching agent and doing some DIY peels to try to speed up the process. Just remember that we're in summer and your skin will be even more sensitive to sunlight.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 am

Josee wrote:

Bira wrote:

Hi, I have retin-a 0.025% cream and it doesn't make my skin peel at all. Is this dose too low? I'm trying to bleach out brown spots on my cheeks.

I'm sure the more knowledgeable people here will be able to answer this more thoroughly (and properly!) but I "think" that if you are only applying 0.025% for hyperpigmentation you have a LONGGG way to go.

You might try adding some bleaching agent and doing some DIY peels to try to speed up the process. Just remember that we're in summer and your skin will be even more sensitive to sunlight.

Josee is correct. The .025% will only do so much for your pigmentation, and it will take at least 1 year of nightly use. You don't have to peel to get results from tretinoin. You definitely will need to use something else along with the RA if you want quicker results.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:40 am

susiek wrote:

TY Rileygirl.

Well i am 47 and i'm going to continue the results of aging if i don't step it up from Eluage which has been very nice for my skin, rosacea and all, but not in the way of diminishing lines.

I'm thinking of trying Renova .025%, i am assuming this will be a big jump from Eluage and even Retrinal. Would this logically be the way to go? What product would be a jump to a retinoid but would potentially have the least S/E?

I looked at medsmex.com to buy Renova .025% cheaply but their shipping is somewhat prohibitive!!

Thanks for any and all help!

Susie, I personally think the Renova would be the way to go. Start with the .025% and try to use it every other night. Give it time and see how it goes. Studies have shown people get the same results with using the .05 as with the .1%, so it is not necessary (in my opinion) to go up to the highest. Also, if you aren't peeling, etc., it does not mean the RA is not working. Just remember to give anything you try at least 6 months to work, but maybe even up to 1 year! (You also may want to check out this thread, as it is talking specifically about eye wrinkles and may give you a different option that RA. http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=34593). (And another thread for your perusal! http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=32702. I am trying these 2 products right now. The "tuck" effect is pretty instant, but I have only been using the combo for 2 weeks now, so way too soon to tell if it will help under eye wrinkles, which I have, too - so you are not alone!)

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:48 pm

rileygirl wrote:

Josee wrote:

Bira wrote:

Hi, I have retin-a 0.025% cream and it doesn't make my skin peel at all. Is this dose too low? I'm trying to bleach out brown spots on my cheeks.

I'm sure the more knowledgeable people here will be able to answer this more thoroughly (and properly!) but I "think" that if you are only applying 0.025% for hyperpigmentation you have a LONGGG way to go.

You might try adding some bleaching agent and doing some DIY peels to try to speed up the process. Just remember that we're in summer and your skin will be even more sensitive to sunlight.

Josee is correct. The .025% will only do so much for your pigmentation, and it will take at least 1 year of nightly use. You don't have to peel to get results from tretinoin. You definitely will need to use something else along with the RA if you want quicker results.

Thanks Josee and Rileygirl!

Another followup question then is what % should I get if I want a quicker result for bleaching the brown spots?

Also what else can I use with this particular strength to speed thigngs up? Can I use something with 2% hydroquinone? I recently got a sample of Murad Lightening Gel with 2% hydroquinone. Can I apply this and wait for it to dry and put the 0.025% retin-a on top? Or will that still not do much for my brown spots?

Does the hydroquinone work to stop melanin production?

What does retin-a do? Is this a bleaching agent? Or does it also stop melanin production?

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:51 pm

Bira - From my own experience using Retin A microgel 0.1% on brown spots, and from what I know about Retin A, it is not a bleaching cream. Retin A increases cell turnover and builds collagen. I.e., it sloughs off dead skin cells more quickly and the irritation it causes to do this (more or less depending on skin type) stimulates collagen building. Because brown spots can be deep, Retin A alone is not an efficient treatment for discoloration. At least it wasn't for me. It is more effective for treating very fine (shallow) wrinkles and even more effective for minimizing/delaying wrinkles. Also, it does not stop melanin.

Personally, I like YNS Products A-Serum for an undereye treatment.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:12 pm

Bira wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

Josee wrote:

Bira wrote:

Hi, I have retin-a 0.025% cream and it doesn't make my skin peel at all. Is this dose too low? I'm trying to bleach out brown spots on my cheeks.

I'm sure the more knowledgeable people here will be able to answer this more thoroughly (and properly!) but I "think" that if you are only applying 0.025% for hyperpigmentation you have a LONGGG way to go.

You might try adding some bleaching agent and doing some DIY peels to try to speed up the process. Just remember that we're in summer and your skin will be even more sensitive to sunlight.

Josee is correct. The .025% will only do so much for your pigmentation, and it will take at least 1 year of nightly use. You don't have to peel to get results from tretinoin. You definitely will need to use something else along with the RA if you want quicker results.

Thanks Josee and Rileygirl!

Another followup question then is what % should I get if I want a quicker result for bleaching the brown spots?

Also what else can I use with this particular strength to speed thigngs up? Can I use something with 2% hydroquinone? I recently got a sample of Murad Lightening Gel with 2% hydroquinone. Can I apply this and wait for it to dry and put the 0.025% retin-a on top? Or will that still not do much for my brown spots?

Does the hydroquinone work to stop melanin production?

What does retin-a do? Is this a bleaching agent? Or does it also stop melanin production?

If you're not using a Vitamin C product that contains l-ascorbic acid you could try that to help with the brown spots. You should apply it first thing after cleansing in the morning on dry skin before applying any other products. You could also try alternating nights with your Retin-A and an AHA product.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:36 pm

jom wrote:

If you're not using a Vitamin C product that contains l-ascorbic acid you could try that to help with the brown spots. You should apply it first thing after cleansing in the morning on dry skin before applying any other products. You could also try alternating nights with your Retin-A and an AHA product.

I agree with Jom, and would definitely try that route instead of adding hydroquinone right away. HQ has a ton of controversy surrounding it, so you want to do your homework and decide if it is right for you or not. A good C product and an AHA at night could go a long way in fading the spots. If you find after about 6 months that you need something stronger, then you could consider a hydroquinone product. Just my 2 cents!

And, Jax is definitely correct. Retin A or any form of A is not a bleaching product (and for the majority of people it will not be enough to lighten the spots).

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:37 pm

Jax wrote:

Personally, I like YNS Products A-Serum for an undereye treatment.

What is this YNS product, Jax? I have never heard of that brand.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:07 pm

Riley - I found YNS on-line about 6 years ago. It's a nice line from a medspa in Florida. I started out with a 4-product recommended package from them, but over time I eliminated 3 of the products mainly because I could find similar products without having to use mail ordering. I continue to use the A-Serum as an undereye treatment because it resolved several issues for me. I have their Net address over in my e-mail, but I think if you go towww.ynsproducts.com, it will take you there. The "YNS" stands for "Yes New Skin." If the URL doesn't work for you, let me know and I'll post back with the exact web address. They have superb customer service, btw.

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:57 pm

Thank you Jax!

free skin care · Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:56 pm

Jax wrote:

Riley - I found YNS on-line about 6 years ago. It's a nice line from a medspa in Florida. I started out with a 4-product recommended package from them, but over time I eliminated 3 of the products mainly because I could find similar products without having to use mail ordering. I continue to use the A-Serum as an undereye treatment because it resolved several issues for me. I have their Net address over in my e-mail, but I think if you go towww.ynsproducts.com, it will take you there. The "YNS" stands for "Yes New Skin." If the URL doesn't work for you, let me know and I'll post back with the exact web address. They have superb customer service, btw.

Here is an updated link:

http://www.ynsmedspa.com/index.html

They have some interesting before and after pics....check out the last one on this page:

http://www.ynsmedspa.com/casestudies.html

free skin care · Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:24 am

Not a Retin A expert...but wanted to chime in and say that Renova plus Vit C in the AM has sent the majority of my brown spots packing. I also do regular medium strength Lactic Acid peels which you can do just on the spots.

cheers

rebecca

free skin care · Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:25 am

bethany wrote:

Here is an updated link:

http://www.ynsmedspa.com/index.html

They have some interesting before and after pics....check out the last one on this page:

http://www.ynsmedspa.com/casestudies.html

Thanks, Bethany! Very Happy

free skin care · Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:36 pm

Bethany - Thanks for the links! I had to smile because this company has changed their web address and their web site every year since I found them. I think their Internet business keeps growing and their products have changed as well. When I first started using the A-Serum, it did not contain peptides. It was a very basic formula with maybe 4 ingredients. Anyway, I can't say enough good things about Natasha who has always provided me with great customer service and counsel.

Snowqueen - What strength Lactic do you use on your spots?

free skin care · Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:07 pm

Does anyone know how an ingredient like adapalene (differin) compares to retinoids? I have been using differin for over 5 years for acne and am happy using it in combination with salycilic acid toners. But now that I'm over 30 I am getting fine lines and red dots around my eyes. Can I use adapalene near my eyes? Am I better off looking for a retinoid eye product?

free skin care · Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:26 pm

butterflyrainbow wrote:

Does anyone know how an ingredient like adapalene (differin) compares to retinoids? I have been using differin for over 5 years for acne and am happy using it in combination with salycilic acid toners. But now that I'm over 30 I am getting fine lines and red dots around my eyes. Can I use adapalene near my eyes? Am I better off looking for a retinoid eye product?

All I know about differin is that it is a 3rd generation retinoid. You may be able to find info on it here.

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/retinoids.html

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