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Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:00 pm  |
In anticipation of dermarolling, I've done a lot of research, here and elsewhere and I am grateful for all the info shared ... I've researched not only skin needling, but vitamin based topicals, inflammation and collagen building along with wrinkle reduction, pigmentation reduction, etc.
What I've learned is causing me to re-think my entire anti-aging regimine.
In recent years, my regimin has consisted of retinoids at night and Vitamin C serum and suncreen during the daytime. I've just started rolling.
Because I've been aware of the limited penetration of topicals, I've used the maximum percentage I could tolerate and in the process -this has resulted in inflammation to the epidermis - redness, peeling, etc. Inflammation is a double edged sword. Apparently, when you are trying to rebuild collagen in the dermis - it can be helpful - but irritating topicals sitting on the epidermis can be a bad thing.
From what I have read - it is better to protect the epidermis and concentrate on delivering actives into the deeper skin layers.
Enter the dermaroller: this tool allows you deliver topicals more deeply into the skin. Accordingly, due to this high rate of penetration - you can use gentler, less irritating forms of the topical Vitamins A & C -hence - less inflammation.
Reports indicate that best results from dermarolling are obtained by less frequent, but more aggressive rolling.
Ok, so pulling all this together, it occurs to me that rather than nightly applications of Retinoic Acid and daily applications of Ascorbic Acid -
I would be better off with periodic applications of less irritating forms of these topicals (eg. retinyl palmitate and ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate) - which would result in better collagen building (due to better penetration) and less inflammation (due to less frequent applications with less irritating topicals)
I know we have many knowledgeable posters here -please correct me if I am off base here. Thanks
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Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:23 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I would be better off with periodic applications of less irritating forms of these topicals (eg. retinyl palmitate and ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate) - which would result in better collagen building (due to better penetration) and less inflammation (due to less frequent applications with less irritating topicals)
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That is pretty much the 302 philosophy! |
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Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:52 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I would be better off with periodic applications of less irritating forms of these topicals (eg. retinyl palmitate and ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate) - which would result in better collagen building (due to better penetration) and less inflammation (due to less frequent applications with less irritating topicals)
* |
That is pretty much the 302 philosophy! |
Agreed!
However, if you are planning on achieving the deeper penetration by dermarolling, you will be creating inflammation via that method. I would personally recommend ultrasound over dermarolling for more frequent usage like daily, weekly, etc. Ultrasound increases penetration through "cavitation" and is also recommended by 302. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:52 am |
And I'm going to chime in:
as a surgical assistant in a head neck center please be advised that there is NO way to STERILIZE a roller at home. Disinfect? maybe..
Staph A infections aren't pretty- I've seen my share....  |
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I don't buy product from EDS so no agenda |
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Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:50 am |
ok good - thanks for the feedback.
I'm looking at only using sunscreen and emollients (ceramides, HA, oils, humectants, etc) on the very top layer - stratum corneum (sp?), if I understand this all correctly.
As far as disinfecting vs. sterilizing, when it comes to rollers - as long as I am not sharing the rollers with anyone else, only using them on myself, am I relatively (nothing is guaranteed in life) safe using disinfectants as opposed to a sterilization method?
Thanks again all, BF |
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Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:53 am |
Also, are ultrasound devices the same type of devices used by Dr. Fernandes? (sonophoresis and ionophoresis?)
Thanks, BF
PS/ If anyone can point me in the direction of the best place to learn about these devices - that would be much appreciated! |
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Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:06 am |
As far as I know sonophoresis is ultrasound, and iontophoresis is delivering +/- charged formulas into the skin with electric current.
Ultrasound is recommended by Dr. Huber with 302 (but not often - no overdoing anything). Not sure where to send you for info on either of the 2, maybe just search around on google. Or, a very knowledgeable person to talk to would be Mr. Yeung from Bellaire (he sells the ultrasound, ezzi-peel, etc). |
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Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:32 pm |
| Hi Colorblind, I clicked on your link but it was noted that the item was removed? |
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I am from LI, New York, and enjoy reading and sometimes posting on beauty boards |
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Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:10 pm |
| MarieIG wrote: |
| Hi Colorblind, I clicked on your link but it was noted that the item was removed? |
MarieIG, copy and paste it - it comes up then. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:56 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I would be better off with periodic applications of less irritating forms of these topicals (eg. retinyl palmitate and ascorbyl tetraisopalmitate) - which would result in better collagen building (due to better penetration) and less inflammation (due to less frequent applications with less irritating topicals)
* |
That is pretty much the 302 philosophy! |
Rileygirl,
I am sort of familiar with the 302 skincare line and know you don't use an acids. I never started it, well because most my products at home contain acids and I'm not willing to throw them out. I'd use them up and start, but I keep buying more. I see that you use this line. What are you thoughts and what has it done for your skin? Anyone else who has tried it, please chime in, I'd love to hear from others if this is something I should really make the time to try. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:02 pm |
| As far as ultrasound devices go, are we talking about going to an esthetician for this treatment or purchasing one for at home use? Just thought I'd ask... Thanks! |
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50 Is definitely NOT nifty!! |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:35 pm |
I'd say at-home ultrasound use - due to time and expense....
We are (in general) not into lining the pockets of others...if we can do it at home! |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:51 pm |
| kims wrote: |
| As far as ultrasound devices go, are we talking about going to an esthetician for this treatment or purchasing one for at home use? Just thought I'd ask... Thanks! |
For at home use, kims. Bellaire sells the 2 MHz. You don't want a 1 MHz for the face, and the 2 gets you a little deeper penetration than the 3 MHz. (Jennifer from 21st century skin also sells the 2 MHz from Bellaire, and from the looks of it Kandis from Lips2Kiss is also selling this one). |
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:03 pm |
| kdd2411 wrote: |
Rileygirl,
I am sort of familiar with the 302 skincare line and know you don't use an acids. I never started it, well because most my products at home contain acids and I'm not willing to throw them out. I'd use them up and start, but I keep buying more. I see that you use this line. What are you thoughts and what has it done for your skin? Anyone else who has tried it, please chime in, I'd love to hear from others if this is something I should really make the time to try. |
Hi, kdd! In my opinion using 302 is taking a big leap of faith, as most of Dr. Huber's theories (as far as I am aware) have no (published at least) studies to back them up. So, first thing about 302 is getting the correct mind set. For me, the more I read Dr. Huber's theories, the more they made sense to me, and I was at the right mind set to start the products. You also have to be willing to give up all your other products (which definitely was hard in the beginning for me, as I am product junkie!).
The deal with the 302 is that it is a long term process. Not like Obagi where you have fantastic results in 4 months. 302 can take up to 1 year to work its magic. But, the difference is that with 302 the changes will be lasting, and with something like Obagi you have to continue on maintenance or your "issues" come back.
I have only been using 302 since March, so I am almost at 5 months. I have not seen any drastic improvement with my skin. There has been a slight improvement in my pigmentation, which is lighter, as well as my broken caps are definitely less now than when I started. No change in wrinkles. My skin does have a nice healthy glow. No miraculous transformation of my skin on the outside appearance at least!
That said, I am willing to trust 302 and give it 1 year to see where it will take me. I believe in a lot of Dr. Huber's theories just due to my own experience with products, so I am willing to give it time and see. Hope that helps. I definitely hope I don't sound negative about 302, because I love the line, but I wanted to be as honest as I could regarding any visible changes! |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:04 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
Hi, kdd! In my opinion using 302 is taking a big leap of faith, as most of Dr. Huber's theories (as far as I am aware) have no (published at least) studies to back them up. So, first thing about 302 is getting the correct mind set. For me, the more I read Dr. Huber's theories, the more they made sense to me, and I was at the right mind set to start the products. You also have to be willing to give up all your other products (which definitely was hard in the beginning for me, as I am product junkie!).
The deal with the 302 is that it is a long term process. Not like Obagi where you have fantastic results in 4 months. 302 can take up to 1 year to work its magic. But, the difference is that with 302 the changes will be lasting, and with something like Obagi you have to continue on maintenance or your "issues" come back.
I have only been using 302 since March, so I am almost at 5 months. I have not seen any drastic improvement with my skin. There has been a slight improvement in my pigmentation, which is lighter, as well as my broken caps are definitely less now than when I started. No change in wrinkles. My skin does have a nice healthy glow. No miraculous transformation of my skin on the outside appearance at least!
That said, I am willing to trust 302 and give it 1 year to see where it will take me. I believe in a lot of Dr. Huber's theories just due to my own experience with products, so I am willing to give it time and see. Hope that helps. I definitely hope I don't sound negative about 302, because I love the line, but I wanted to be as honest as I could regarding any visible changes! |
Thanks for the honest response! I have heard many member rave about this line and think it would be nice to only need a few products rather than have a whole bunch. How much did the initial startup with with purchasing the products cost and how long do they last? |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:38 am |
| kdd2411 wrote: |
| How much did the initial startup with with purchasing the products cost and how long do they last? |
I think it was around $100. The products last a long time. All the "actives" would last at least 1 year. HTH! |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:40 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| kdd2411 wrote: |
| How much did the initial startup with with purchasing the products cost and how long do they last? |
I think it was around $100. The products last a long time. All the "actives" would last at least 1 year. HTH! |
Oh wow! That is not bad at all, especially if they last that long. It would actually work out cheaper for me. Some of skin creams are expensive. |
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:43 pm |
| fan of PTR wrinkle line for a while,soft and moisture,but reduce lines maybe take long |
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Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:30 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
As far as disinfecting vs. sterilizing, when it comes to rollers - as long as I am not sharing the rollers with anyone else, only using them on myself, am I relatively (nothing is guaranteed in life) safe using disinfectants as opposed to a sterilization method?
Thanks again all, BF |
Sorry Barefootgirl,
NO!!!!!!!! Staph A lives everywhere-our own skin is crawling with these bugs. It is a crap shoot ANYTIME there is a skin wound if it will become infected. Now with "superbugs" that resist antibiotic treatment, it is ever so important to treat every skin nick with a disinfecting ointment and bandage...
I cannot stress how opposed to home derma rolling I am! I have seen too many horror shows to condone this |
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I don't buy product from EDS so no agenda |
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Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:31 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| kims wrote: |
| As far as ultrasound devices go, are we talking about going to an esthetician for this treatment or purchasing one for at home use? Just thought I'd ask... Thanks! |
For at home use, kims. Bellaire sells the 2 MHz. You don't want a 1 MHz for the face, and the 2 gets you a little deeper penetration than the 3 MHz. (Jennifer from 21st century skin also sells the 2 MHz from Bellaire, and from the looks of it Kandis from Lips2Kiss is also selling this one). |
Thanks again, Rileygirl. I've heard a little about the home devices and it may be a good idea to investigate further!  |
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50 Is definitely NOT nifty!! |
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Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:21 pm |
I don't know what to make of the no acids theory and the Vitamin C oxidation claims. We have too many doctors all telling us different things - who are we supposed to believe? For myself, I think I'll stick with mainstream scientific evidence until such beliefs are widely accepted. Incidentally, I read today that mouthwashes can cause cancer. It seems like everyday there's a report stating that something we are either using or eating is detrimental to our health. If you worry too much about all of this, you just drive yourself crazy - and we all know that stress is the biggest enemy of all.
I think that if your skin can tolerate Retinoic Acid, then stick with it. If it can't, then go for a retinol product. All the studies and articles that I have ever read come down to the opinion that Retin-A is still the gold standard of anti-aging. If the application of L-Ascorbic Acid worries you, I would go for an oil soluble Vitamin C which is supposed to be far more stable.
As for the Dermaroller - nothing in life is 100% safe. I once got septicemia from pricking my finger on a cactus - so s**t happens! However, I think the Dermaroller is a wonderful tool for skin rejuvenation, however, it must be used judiciously and with good hygiene. I've been needling now for about two years and have taken a fairly aggressive approach to my anti-aging routine. At nearly 60, I figure I've got nothing to loose. I started off using a 1.5mm roller and did six rolls in six weeks. Then I stopped for a while and rolled occasionally. I now use a 0.5mm roller and roll every two weeks. In between I use the STOP. After rolling I have always applied Retin-A - my skin tolerates it extremely well and I have never had any irritation. My skin does peel slightly, however, after the rolling - but there is no redness or irritation. I believe I have improved the look of my skin immensely from doing this - my sebaceous hyperplasia, wrinkles and pores all look allot better. As for collagen and elastin production - I'm not so sure - I still have the same amount of sagging. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:19 pm |
| What you said is true about damaging the collegen. Its the support to skin and skin sags eventually. Just remember that anything you do to your skin will not change one wrinkle on your skin. I think what you REALLY need are antioxidants at night and a good sunscreen by day. |
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Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:21 pm |
| SusieQ wrote: |
| Just remember that anything you do to your skin will not change one wrinkle on your skin. |
I don't agree with that. I think there are things topically that can improve wrinkles, depending on the depth of them. |
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Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:42 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| ......I think that if your skin can tolerate Retinoic Acid, then stick with it. If it can't, then go for a retinol product......If the application of L-Ascorbic Acid worries you, I would go for an oil soluble Vitamin C which is supposed to be far more stable. |
Couldn't agree anymore!!! |
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