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Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:13 pm  |
1. Erase dryness and fine lines with GLA. This is a fatty acid (gamma linoleic acid) is found in borage seed oil and evening primrose, and is essential for building soft, healthy, line -free skin. This was stated by Dr Perricone. In Europeon studies, a daily dose of either oil lessened dryness and tightness by 67% in two months, plus improved skin tone, elasticity and texture, and reduced wrinkling for 71% of women.
One would take 1200 mg of the borage oil or 3600 mg of evening primrose daily.
2. Firm lax skin with powdered greens. Adding the supplement to your morning juice can help slow-even reverse- sags and bags by neutralizing acids released by cells that attack the skin's supportive collagen and elastin. This research was done by the University of Maryland.
Each teaspoon of greens gives you the firming, acid neutralizing benefit of several pounds of fresh vegetables. Plus it has hundreds of skin healing vitamins, minerals and antioxidents.
In preliminary studies, a daily serving of the powdered greens improved elasticity and tone in as little as two weeks.
You would take 1tsp daily, such as GNC Maximum Greens Complete or Garden of Life Perfect Food.
Boy these sure sound like it's worth a try. I would probably mix the greens in V-8 Splash or V-8 juice. I may try one of these or both. Can't hurt anything, probably pretty good for us. |
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Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:31 pm |
This does sound interesting and it's definitely worth a try! I'd rather add the greens supplement to V-8 juice than make my own green smoothie. I've tried a couple of times and I just don't like the taste. I'm probably doing something wrong...
Will add these supplements to my ever-growing "wish list." |
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50 Is definitely NOT nifty!! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:55 am |
| I believe Hemp Seed Oil has the highest percentage of Linoleic Acid - I'm currently applying it to my face morning and night. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:05 am |
| Boy! 3600 mg of primrose oil sounds like allot. I take 500mg daily! I wonder if there are any side effects with that large of a dose! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:29 am |
Hi Keliu,
For how long have you been using the Hemp Seed Oil and do you have anything to report yet?
I recently bought a bottle of organic Hemp Seed Oil and will start using it next week and see if long term use will work on broken caps (someone reported improvement on broken caps by using Hemp Seed Oil).
You know, about the Evening Primrose oil …last winter I used the Martina Gebhardt Evening Primrose cream. No fancy ingredients, just some organic oils, a bit of lanolin, some green tea extract and some sheabutter.
I have never felt anything more gentle on my skin and it literally healed some red, dry and flaky patches overnight. It improved the overall texture of my skin as well. It became dewy and plump.
I am going to use it again this winter and will ad a few drops of the Hemp Seed Oil.
Ingredients: Pure spring water, green tea extract*, rose blossom water*, elder blossom water*, evening primrose oil*, macadamia nut oil*, olive oil*, woolwax, loose mineral sediment, beeswax*, sheabutter, cocoa butter*, vitamin E. |
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male, 45, sensitive skin, broken caps, some hyperpigmentation |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:31 am |
Evening Primrose Oil is basically omega 6.
I have learned that we should supplement with omega 3 since we already consume more than enough of omega 6.
Any opinions? |
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male, 45, sensitive skin, broken caps, some hyperpigmentation |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:50 am |
| Hi Jimm. I have also read that we usually don't need anymore omega 6 as we get enough in our diets. I also read (but unfortunately can't remember the website) that evening primrose oil is better for the skin than borage oil (in a cream.) I also have used Martina Gebhardt and really like some of her products. I currently have the Avocado Eye Cream which is great around the eyes and a bit too stimulating on my face if I get some on my cheeks. Which other products in the line have you used? I got a sample of the Happy Aging cream but wonder if it is too stimulating for my skin (mild rosacea and lately my skin has become more sensitive). Have you tried her Shea Butter products? I use GERnetic and find the Synchro is really wonderful, very soothing and healing. It is from France, have you heard of it. TIA. Harriet |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:00 am |
I've only just started using the Hemp Seed Oil so I don't have anything specific to report yet. But I'm a huge fan of all kinds of oils, I use Rosehip, Pomegranate, Argan, Emu, Tamanu to name a few.
I'm solely using the Hemp Seed oil at the moment because it's supposed to be very beneficial for people who suffer from blocked pores - and that's me. Apparently pores can become blocked due to a lack of linoleic acid. I should add that I'm unable to use creams on my skin because it gets so congested, I do much better with oils. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:06 am |
| Jimm wrote: |
Evening Primrose Oil is basically omega 6.
I have learned that we should supplement with omega 3 since we already consume more than enough of omega 6.
Any opinions? |
I first heard this same thing at a seminar on holistic/alternative medicine. And then just recently read the same thing on a Dr. Mercola site. My understanding is we need Krill or Fish oil type supplementation (OMega 3's) to balance the abundance of Omega 6's already in our diet. For example nuts (except walnuts) are very high in Omega 6's. Oils such as canola are high in Omega 6. Supposedly these add to the inflammatory processes in our body. Maybe there is something unique about borage or evening primrose? |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:15 am |
Some other good reading about diet and the effects including GREENS are in the book Patient heal thyself, he also wrote another noted at the bottom called The makers diet. I had these recommended because one son suffers from Ulcerative Colitis, but the books deal with how diet affects all aspects of health. He started a business with supplements after trying to give the info away to many doctors, Garden of life is the brand. It seems Doctors for the most part aren't interested in cure, so much money to be made in treatment. The books aren't preachy, I know the blurb may give that impression. I have read and re-read both. His company sells green food called Perfect Food both in powder form to mix as well as capsules, I prefer the caps!
Selection from "Patient Heal Thyself" Book by Jordan Rubin
Jordan Rubin from Garden of Life began suffering from constant diarrhea, fatigue, chronic systemic infections and acute weight loss while working as a camp counselor during summer break from his studies at Florida State University where he was an athletic/scholarship student. He returned to FSU that fall and tried to deny he was sick. But within a short time, he became so ill he had to return home.
He writes:
"The very next morning, my father and mother took me to the emergency room. It was the first time I had ever been in a hospital. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be my last. I was hoping it would be a quick visit. I'd get some "cure all" medication and be on my way back to school. My "quick visit" lasted two weeks.
During this period, I would lie in bed with an IV pole attached to each arm, delivering intravenous antibiotics and nutrients, and watch T.V. I got even more depressed because that was the time of the Oklahoma City bombing.
The doctors prescribed antibiotics and antiparasitic drugs that had to be given intravenously for maximum effect. To add to this, my body was so overridden by infection that it had become terrible inflamed. To combat this, I was prescribed two heavy-duty, highly toxic steroid medication, hydrocortisone and prednisone.
I was given every kind of test imaginable. I got more x-rays in those two weeks than most people get in a lifetime. Both my upper and lower gastrointestinal tracts were scanned-and believe me, these weren't the usual short bursts of radiation you get with dental x-rays. I felt like radiologists were conducting an in depth tour of my gut.
I was told that I had Crohn's colitis. Crohn's disease is a condition primarily involving the small bowel and proximal colon that causes the intestinal wall to thicken and cause narrowing of the bowel channel, blocking the intestinal tract. I had an even worse variation of the disease.
The doctors noted I had marked duodenitis, an inflammation of the duodenum, which is at the beginning of the small intestine, coupled with widespread inflammation through my larde and small intestine. Although less than one percent of Crohn's disease patient specifically experience duodenitis, it appeared that I was one of the chosen few with both duodenal and total colonic inflammation."
Neither his doctors' best intentions nor their medical drugs helped. Jordan's weight dropped from 177 pounds to 104 pounds. It was doubtful he would survive the illness. He became wheelchair bound. At one point, doctors suggested a newly introduced but still experimental surgical removal of a portion of his colon. Such extreme measures led Jordan to realize no answer for his wors would come from modern medicine. Thus, he began to seek answers in the field of alternative medicine. It was an odyssey filled with hope and disappointment.
Jordan Rubin continues:
"I estimate that over the course of about two years my father spent $150,000 on natural health treatments. I took dozens of probiotic formulas, as well as enzyme, fiber, anti-candida and antiparasitic formulas. At one point I was taking upwards of six bottles a day of extremely expensive probiotics; one of these products sold for two dollars a capsule and was delivered in a special oil matrix carrier.
I remember using two bottles of powdered acidophilus a day, two bottles of bifidus, and two bottles of bulgaricus - mind you, everyday. One product alone, the two-dollars-a-capsule oil matrix product, was at a dosage of thirty capsules a day. I wanted to get better. I wanted to end the pain. So I was willing to try anything and everything. My search for an answer for my Crohn's disease sent me further and further from home.
I traveled to clinics all over the world, oftentimes in a wheelchair. As I mentioned, I went to the offices of 70 health professionals from seven different countries-in Europe, South America, Mexico, and Canada."
And Jordan Rubin's story continues:
"I was early 1996. My father had just gotten through telling me he had spoken to an eccentric nutritionist on the phone. My father didn't want me to get my hopes up so he had investigated the man's program himself. The nutritionist told my father he believed I was ill because I was not eating the diet of my ancestors, based upon Biblical principles.
When my father told me about all of this, naturally, I was curious. Since I had opted not to have surgery and I was still alive, I decided to try this. It fit into my belief system. In an effort to start all over, I took myself off all nutritional products and read the Bible to see what people ate thousands of years ago. I also learned that the longest living cultures in the world had one thing in common: they consumed living foods that abounded with beneficial microorganisms.
A few weeks later, I got on a plane, still bound to my wheelchair, and headed for southern California to live closer to the man who would teach me how to eat from the Bible. After integrating into that particular nutritionist's program some of my own findings about nutrition and health from the Bible I saw some improvement.
Most times promises are best kept, but, occasionally, times arise when a promise broken is best. It had been ten months since I had taken any supplements, and although my father had promised he wouldn't send me anything else to try, he decided to send me something anyway. It was a plastic bag containing black powder. I had already tried over thirty different probiotics. Now was I supposed to eat this stuff that looked like dirt? 'Forget it,' I thought. My dad called on the phone and urged me to give it a try. 'It may look like dirt, but it isn't,' he said. 'It contains healthy organisms from the soil.'
An article that accompanied the package explained that these were the nutrients missing from today's pesticide-sterilized, barren soils-not only trace mineral but organisms (Homeostatic Soil Organisms, or HSO's, as I later named them). These were living organisms that had been wiped out by the pesticide treatment of America's farm lands, pasteurization of foods, and modern man's disdain for all microorganisms-even those life-supporting bugs our bodies need for great health.
I decided to include these HSO's in my daily diet, which also included raw goat's milk in the form of fermented kefir, different organically grown free-range or grass-fed meats, natural sprouted or sourdough breads made from whole grains that were yeast-free, organic fruits and vegetables, raw sauerkraut, and carrot and other vegetable juices-all 'live' foods with their beneficial enzymes and microorganisms intact.
During my forty days and nights of parking my motor home close to the beach, I prayed, listened to music and planned everything around buying, preparing and eating my food. My weight went from 122 to 151 pounds. I gained 29 pounds in 40 days! The photograph of me on the beach that you see on the cover of this book was taken during this period.
I was not completely well yet, but I had made miraculous strides toward full recovery. I continued to gain weight and strength, and by my twenty-first birthday, I weighed 170 pounds-practically my original weight before I got sick. I doubt if anyone in the world was happier than me.
The terrain of my body and my intestinal tract were being rebuilt, and it appeared that somehow the HSO's themselves were taking care of my underlying condition. After all, in three months, I had gained over 50 pounds. The combination of the Biblical diet and the HSO's had restored my health.
I still went through periods of detoxification every few months or so, but I continued to persevere. In December 1998, I came home to Florida. I was at my normal weight. I was ready to start my life again. I was finally health. Praise God!"
Read More
Read Jordan Rubin's latest book, NY Times Best Seller, The Maker's Diet.
Home | About Crohn's Disease | About Us | Product List | Search | More Info | Basket
From one site:
http://www.crohns.net/Miva/productinfo/ExcerptPHT.shtml
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:25 am |
| Wow. That's quite an ordeal. Thanks for sharing his story DM. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:54 am |
Hi,
Sis the books are real eye openers, he went from looking like a concentration camp survivor to looking and feeling healthy as a horse! The man is a bit over 6 feet tall so you can just imagine how he looked at his low weight.
A lot of truth as to how our food supply is grown in such depleted soil it is very difficult to get much nutrition from it! I really miss living up north where I could grow my own veggies.
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:13 am |
Regarding the Omega 3 & 6 ISSUE!!!
Here is a really simple explanation as to WHY you probably need to get your Omega 3's up!!!
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400149/balancing-omega-3-and-omega-6.html
And don't forget the Chia seeds we're talking about with the smoothies... OMEGA 3's! VIRTUALLY no taste... weird looking to say the least when it's a jelly like substance... just don't stare at it! LOL! |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:25 am |
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
And don't forget the Chia seeds we're talking about with the smoothies... OMEGA 3's! VIRTUALLY no taste... weird looking to say the least when it's a jelly like substance... just don't stare at it! LOL! |
Claudia, the first time I ever made the chia gel my daughter said "Eww mommy's eating fish eggs"  so now I usually refer to them as such. Thanks for this info on the Omega 3's.
DM - Thank you also for this inspiring story. I love to read how people are healed through natural sources where drs. can't seem to help. Sounds like a few books I should check out. |
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Early 40's, fair skin, green eyes, rosacea, ocassional break-outs, dk. circles, sun damage. AALS, DermaWand, Safetox! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:31 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Hi,
Sis the books are real eye openers, he went from looking like a concentration camp survivor to looking and feeling healthy as a horse! The man is a bit over 6 feet tall so you can just imagine how he looked at his low weight.
A lot of truth as to how our food supply is grown in such depleted soil it is very difficult to get much nutrition from it! I really miss living up north where I could grow my own veggies.
DM |
Come on up - we'll plant a garden |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:34 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Hi,
Sis the books are real eye openers, he went from looking like a concentration camp survivor to looking and feeling healthy as a horse! The man is a bit over 6 feet tall so you can just imagine how he looked at his low weight. DM |
 WOW, DM. I just saw the before and after pictures. What an incredible transformation. |
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Early 40's, fair skin, green eyes, rosacea, ocassional break-outs, dk. circles, sun damage. AALS, DermaWand, Safetox! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:37 am |
| Songbird wrote: |
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
And don't forget the Chia seeds we're talking about with the smoothies... OMEGA 3's! VIRTUALLY no taste... weird looking to say the least when it's a jelly like substance... just don't stare at it! LOL! |
Claudia, the first time I ever made the chia gel my daughter said "Eww mommy's eating fish eggs" so now I usually refer to them as such. Thanks for this info on the Omega 3's. |
I just started using chia seeds. I sprinkle them on my cereal. Am I supposed to put them in water to make a jelly before eating them?
 |
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:41 am |
September... you don't HAVE to make them into a jelly...
I think the idea is to just use them... and honestly, I don't even know the recommended amount. Still reading on them...
To make a "jelly", put a table spoon or 2 in a glass, add 3-4-tablespoons of water, let sit for 30 minutes... It gets all gloopy. Add to a smoothie, or things that you can MIX... you'll never notice or see them... I can't remember who uses them a lot besides Toby... other ideas.
Google Chia... there are ideas all over the net!
You might check out the book The Power of Chia... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:49 am |
| Thanks Claudia - that is a great article. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:38 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Hi,
Sis the books are real eye openers, he went from looking like a concentration camp survivor to looking and feeling healthy as a horse! The man is a bit over 6 feet tall so you can just imagine how he looked at his low weight.
A lot of truth as to how our food supply is grown in such depleted soil it is very difficult to get much nutrition from it! I really miss living up north where I could grow my own veggies.
DM |
Come on up - we'll plant a garden |
I would love to! And bring all my goodies for that SPA DAY!
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:20 pm |
Songbird,
The changes he recommends are extreme, but seeing him cured by his own "journey" is incredible, and when you read his books you really can't argue with the logic behind his thinking. I know he is now married with kids and continues to be healthy. That in it self is amazing as according to conventional medicine his disease is incurable!
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:13 pm |
I ordered the Garden of Life Greens.
Here are some of the ingredients:
Perfect Food by Garden of Life contains over 8500mg of highly concentrated absorbable green foods with no filler ingredients. Perfect Food is high in nutrition and low in calories, making it ideal for those on low carbohydrate diets. Perfect Food is designed to provide the highest quality vegetable nutrition that can and should be enjoyed by everyone.
Green Super Foods: Kamut Grass, Wheat Grass, Barley Grass, Oat Grass, Alfalfa Grass, Spirulina, Chlorella, Dunaliella, Kelp and Dulse. Green Super Foods are a rich source of vitamins, minerals, enzymes, amino acids, chlorophyll and antioxidants. (Gluten and Phytate free)
Vegetables: Carrot Juice, Beet Juice, Tomato Juice, Sweet Potato, Brocolli, Kale, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Brussels Sprouts, Parsley, Spinach, Asparagus, Celery, Cucumber, Green Pepper, Garlic, Ginger and Onion. Vegetables are nature's richest sources of phytochemicals including lycopene, sulforophane, allicin and bioflavonoids.
Grains and Seeds: Flax Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Sunflower Seeds, Pumpkin Seeds, Chia Seeds Garbanzo Beans, Red Lentils, Soy Beans, Kidney Beans, Azuki Beans, Oats, Barley, Rye, Millet, Brown Rice, Maize and Buckwheat (Gluten and Phytate Free). Easily digestible grains, seeds and legumes provide vitamins such as B complex and vitamin E, Isoflavones, Fiber and essential fatty acids including Omega 3 and 6.
Acerola Cherry: Nature's richest source of vitamin C. Vitamin C is crucial as a premier antioxidant and is important for the health of the immune system. Certified Organic
Poten-Zyme™ Process The nutrient rich superfoods contained in Perfect Food are pre-digested using the proprietary Poten-Zyme process. The Poten-Zyme™ process is an ancient bio fermentation process using beneficial microorgainisms (probiotics) and their enzymes to gently break down foods into their most basic elements. Poten-Zyme neutralizes nutrient inhibitors found in foods such as grains, seeds and legumes. Many people with sensitive digestive systems have a tough time obtaining nutrition from these sometimes difficult to digest foods. Poten-Zyme solves that problem. Poten-Zyme creates and liberates valuable compounds within the foods including: enzymes, antioxidants, beta glucans, phytosterols and many others. Poten-Zyme enhances the nutritional value of the food while making it much easier to digest. This assures the Perfect Food user more complete absorption and delivery of nutrients at the cellular level. Unlike other products, the probiotics and enzymes contained in Perfect Food are created within the foods themselves. Perfect Food provides probiotics, enzymes and phytonutrients in one whole food package. |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:32 pm |
Dark Moon,
Thank you for providing a glimpse of such an inspiring story. I think the Bible can provide some amazing answers to some very contemporary problems we face in this day and age.
I have some friends whose children are dealing with Crohn's (sp?) and I think I will pass the details about the book along.
Just have to mention too, that I love this forum. You never know what bits of new and helpful information you might encounter!
Leathal: Just saw your post. Perfect Garden looks good! |
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50 Is definitely NOT nifty!! |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:52 pm |
| harriet wrote: |
| Hi Jimm. I have also read that we usually don't need anymore omega 6 as we get enough in our diets. I also read (but unfortunately can't remember the website) that evening primrose oil is better for the skin than borage oil (in a cream.) I also have used Martina Gebhardt and really like some of her products. I currently have the Avocado Eye Cream which is great around the eyes and a bit too stimulating on my face if I get some on my cheeks. Which other products in the line have you used? I got a sample of the Happy Aging cream but wonder if it is too stimulating for my skin (mild rosacea and lately my skin has become more sensitive). Have you tried her Shea Butter products? I use GERnetic and find the Synchro is really wonderful, very soothing and healing. It is from France, have you heard of it. TIA. Harriet |
Hi Harriet,
Like you I have sensitive (mild rosacea) skin. Last Winter I have used both the Evening Primrose cream and the Sheabutter Cream.
Both are rich in texture (as all Martina Gebhardt creams) but fully absorb after a couple of minutes. They never broke me out. In fact, they made my skin look better!
The Sheabutter Cream is really gentle and protective. I love it. Wonderful stuff!
I have also tried the Sheabutter Cleansing Milk, the Sheabutter Tonic and the Sheabutter Lotion. In my opinion these are all good products but not as special as the Sheabutter Cream.
As a morning/no sunscreen cleanser I prefer the Logona Free Cleanser. It totally matches with the Martina Gebhardt products.
As for the Happy Aging Cream, I have tried a sample of it and it felt totally fine. No adverse reactions, no stinging, no breakouts.
You can always start slow and mix it with Sheabutter Cream or Evening Primrose Cream and see how that goes.
Another cream that I have tried for a short while is the Neroli Cream. It contains rosehip oil and some extracts. I am usually sensitive to rosehip oil but had no adverse reactions at all. I think it is one of their best creams.
I only use MG products every now and then, especially in winter.
Thanks for mentioning Gernetic skincare. Is there any website you know of where the full ingredients of their products are listed? |
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male, 45, sensitive skin, broken caps, some hyperpigmentation |
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Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:15 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
I've only just started using the Hemp Seed Oil so I don't have anything specific to report yet. But I'm a huge fan of all kinds of oils, I use Rosehip, Pomegranate, Argan, Emu, Tamanu to name a few.
I'm solely using the Hemp Seed oil at the moment because it's supposed to be very beneficial for people who suffer from blocked pores - and that's me. Apparently pores can become blocked due to a lack of linoleic acid. I should add that I'm unable to use creams on my skin because it gets so congested, I do much better with oils. |
Thanks Keliu.
I am rediscovering the use of pure organic oils. The only oil I have to be careful with is pure undiluted rosehip oil. It’s too stimulating for my skin.
My skin always looks at its best when I treat it with simple and natural substances, like oils.
Except for pure undiluted rosehip oil, my skin never breaks out from using pure oils.
Good luck with the Hemp Seed Oil! |
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male, 45, sensitive skin, broken caps, some hyperpigmentation |
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