collagen supplement works?
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free skin care · Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:28 pm

Does collagen supplement work? Or does applying product with Vit. C (which stimulates production of collagen) on skin work better? I just got a bottle of collagen from Costco. Have to take 4 big pills at one time Confused

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:04 am

For Collagen production the following help.

Retin A
AHAs (in higher strengths, lower pH)
Copper Peptides (second Generation)
Vit C (only if well formulated, at least 10%)

One study found the following useing 20 patients.

Significant increases in collagen production were found in 70% of the persons treated with copper-peptide creams, 50% of the persons treated with the vitamin C cream, and 40% of the persons treated with retinoic acid.

Not all Vit C are created equal. Vit C has stability issues, and must have the correct pH and strength. Many products fall short here. It must also be applyed correctly. (applyed to clean skin, left undistirbed for 30 min so pH is not altered, befoe adding other activities)It also should be used in PM, as UV breaks it down rapidly. (as do heat. light, and air)

Collagen suppliments can help for collagen production in the joints, but its seems poorly effective in skin collagen generation. And much depends on brand and formulation.

Good suppliments for skin though are MSM, (1000 to 4000 mcg) and Vit C,(1000 mg) which work in conjunction with Copper to rebuild Collagen.

Though a number of other suppliments are needed as well depending on your needs. A "good" twice a day multi is a small place to start.

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:27 am

My mom has taken the Total Image Collagen supplement for four months. She didnt see any difference to her skin, neither do I.

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:38 am

I have been taking Whole Foods MSM, BioSil (liquid silicon), Rexall HA, and Skin Eternal HA/collagen, and I think my skin and hair have improved. My nails grow very fast now, and my eyelashes have grown. My lips have gotten a wee bit puffier, and very smooth and unlined.

I want to start using copper peptides and DMAE on my lips.

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:15 am

Red Devil - why would one use cp on one's lips? I'm intrigued!

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:30 am

Not Red Devil, But CP is great on lips. Helps on plumping and fine lines, and rosyness. Or has for me.

Been useing it for 3 years.

MSM and HA are very good for skin and hair, and nails. I noticed a big improvement in hair, lashs, and skin when bumping my MSM upto 4000 mcg /daily. (2000 twice daily)

I do take Collagen, but I never noticed it helped skin any, I take it more for my joints. I do think BioCell is the better version though based on how it distributes and uptakes into the body.

For me Silicon helps some, but not enough to continue extra of it, since I already get some in my current suppliments. But everyones needs vary there.

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:45 am

Catski -- I got the CP serum idea from Scalawaggirl, on the "Eureka!" thread. Smile

She's been using it on her lips for awhile, and they look great. Cool

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:23 am

I thought Vit-C was better to use in the morning, something with it helping not necessarily block the rays out, but something to that affect? Question

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:54 am

It depends on why you use your Vit C. It has many functions.

If you use it for the Antioxitive effect - which is what helps lessen damage from UV exposure. Then using it in the AM is fine, because it absorbs within the skin within about 10 min, and provides some protective benifit toward UV free radicial damage. So it is within the skin layer enough to lessen free radicial damage.

However if you use Vit C for collagen rebuilding, exfoliation, skin brigtening, then you use it in the PM, and leave it on skin undisterbed for 10 - 30 min. (depending on formula)

After that point you could go in the sun, or use other activities on top, because at that point all exfoliation action is complete - so other things will not affect/hamper it.

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:14 am

I would like to both ideally though. I know there's no use in putting it on twice a day since I've heard that it stays within your system up to 72 hours is it, or 24? So how do you get both benefits, if it stays in the system for that long won't you get all the good benefits from it regardless of what time of day one puts it on?

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:27 pm

sort-of. But a bit more complex.

We know Vit C stays in skin for a long time. But the levels degrade slowly after the initial application. So for antioxitive effect - you use it daily.

We don't know exactly how fast it degrades in the skin, we just have a rough average. So we can't say - "at 30 minutes you loose 10% of your protection, at 60 minutes you loose 40%....etc"

Its not that cut and dry. You may loos 90% of it in 60 minutes for example. We do know the skin does hold some still after 24 to 48 hours, maybe even longer. But amounts are sketchy, and vary based on age, skintype, health level, skin thickness, and 8000 other things that are still unknown. Antioxitive studies are still quite new. And there are literally thousands of very good antioxitives, that work very simular. There is not one "best" one - rather, best results seem to be had from useing a rabge of AOs. Since the skin absorbs them often slightly differently.

For exfoliation/collagen effect, using C daily may be to much/to strong for some people to use once or twice daily, because you need it at a lower pH and higher strength then you need for the oxidative effects. This is a more irritating level.

For example L-Ascorbic Acid is the best documented as far as collagen rebuilding. But must be used at a low pH around 2 - 2.3 range, with a strength of 10%.

This can be irritating and drying. But for the best "treatment" effect this is the best level for this type of C.

Other types of C are less irritating, but also less effective, however for some they can provide simular benifits. But much less documentation on them.

It also needs to be applyed to clean skin for best absorption, and left alone for 10 to 20 minutes. Because if you alter the pH by putting another product on top (like sunscreen) you stop all exfoliation activity. After 20 to 30 minutes, the skin pH has risen to 4.5-5.5 so applying anything at that point is okay- as you have already received all the exfoliation you will get.

UV exposure before you have finished your exfoliation/treatment activity will lessen the efficientcy of the product. It will stop that action. However you will still get the AO action, assuming the product is well formulated, applyed correctly, and asorbed into the skin before applying anything else.

Other Vit C types are less pH dependant, and more stable, but again, the effects may not be so good on collagen effects. Studies do not support their benifit in this area really. Though some users feel some will work in simular manners.

For Anti-Oxidant effect, you only need 3% or so, and the pH can be higher, as much as 5.0. Much less irritating, and this will absorb into the skin tissues for roughly 24-48 hours. (varies based on a bunch of facter)

However it does not stay at that same level the entire time, so for best overall AO (antioxidant effect) most ppl use a Combo of Anti-oxitive products (C, E, Green Tea, CO-Q10, on and on) and apply them every 24 hours, in the AM. This gives the strongest dose before UV exposure, when its needed most, and as levels degrade, you are under less UV stress - so hopefully still benifiting.

For the same reason, many sunscreens now add AOs to the products, Such As Vit C, E, Tea Extract etc. This allows you to get your AO benifit with your sunscreen or moisterizer. Just so you know, this type of product will not give the collagen rebuilding effects. For that you will need a higher strentgh product, that you would use in the PM. Smile

I actually have a Vit C product for PM use, and an AO complex for AM use.(has a number of AOs not just C)

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:26 pm

Dear Tangal, do you also use CP serum or cream? Isn't it said that CP can neutralize Vit.C so we should seperate them at least 12 hours? So when should we apply them, CP in the morning then Vit.C in the evening? Or the way around? When we use Vit.C, should we use toner before it to get the best effect? One more thing, how can we know which Vit.C serum is well formulated for the effect of boosting collagen? I am using Vit.C from PSF. Its feeling is good, very moisture and not irritating. But I doubt its effectiveness. Now it is going to be finished. But I don't know which one to buy. I hope my all thees questions don't confuse you. Thanks a lot.

free skin care · Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:27 pm

I use CP Super Serum Mixed with 2X Super Cop Cream. This makes for a strong activity- NOT for beginners. But I have been using CP for 3 years. I started with regular CP Serum, heavily diluted with water.

CP and Vit C normally should not be applied together, as the CP can deactivate the vitamin C. It does do so in a test tube. However some people do use both togther at the same time, and find that the Vit C still seems to work. I personally use one in AM (copper) and one in PM (vit C) – separating them by 12 hours, which is the recommended option.

I am not a fan of toners, most are harsh and highly irritating to skin. So if you are referring to a standard typical toner/astringent that is high in alcohol, Witch Hazel, Menthol, Camphor etc. Then no I personally would not recommend it. I thing they do more harm to the skin then help.

There are some mild Alcohol Free toners, like the Nivea one or Neutrogena Alcohol Free one, that are also Irritant Free – but I donot know the pH. I have called the manufacturer many times, but no one can ever tell me the pH either. ;(

I guess I could just test it myself, But I no longer have those products around, I have used them in the past.

However, I think you point question is – How do I use a low pH C product (pH level of 2.3) after a high pH cleanser (above 5.5 – which most are)

There are a few options. Use a mild low pH cleanser first, which is what I do. One with a pH at 5.5 or below, but do avoid those with irritating ingredients (camphor, menthol, mint, etc) – and really a mild detergent is better then a harsh one. I actually use a detergent free product myself, but that is my personal preference.

If you cannot use a low pH cleanser, wait 20 to 30 minutes after cleansing to let skin pH drop to normal. (that’s how long it take) then use your Vit C.

Or use a low pH acid product first, like Paula’s Choice AHA or BHA liguid. (liguid will not hamper the absorption of a liquid or serum or gel Vita C product), Dianna Yvonnes AHA or BHAs, Skin Biology Exfol, or I Feel Pretty AHA/BHA liquid.

Any of these will work as a “toner”, and an exfoliate. If you want to use them as an exfoliate apply first and leave on the skin for 30 min, then the vit C product. Or if you know the pH of your Vit C, and your AHA or BHA, you can layer the Vit C ontop of the AHA or BHA after a few minutes as a Bi Phasic treatment if the BHA and AHA are not higher then the Vit C.

Or just wipe on skin for the “toning” effect, and then use you C after.

Its hard to know how “good” your product is. You need both an ingredient list, and the pH info from the manufacturer, and the Vit C Percent. If they donot give you the Vit C % - it is usually to low to be effective for collagen rebuilding.

Ideally, assuming you are using L-Ascorbic Acid, which is really the only one “shown” to rebuild collagen – you need 10% Vit C, at a pH of 2.3 or less.

It should be in an Opaque bottle, that is tightly sealed with a small opening or dropper. A large mouth or clear bottle lets in to much light, which degrades product fast. Even the best Vit C product, if of the proper levels and pH, will still will degrade in roughly 30 days realistically. Some may last upto 60 days, but that’s usually a stretch in many cases.

It should be light or clear so you can see when it oxidizes. (Vit C turns yellow, to yellow brown when it degrades)

If it is to expensive to replace in 30 days, its not a good option for you.

Other forms of Vitamin C, can be added to buffer the product, which raises pH, but can also effect ability to rebuild collagen. Some studies suggest that other forms “may” work in a similar manner, but so far there is not a lot of real data to support that.

Also see how your skin responds. You should SEE improvement. Skin should become firmer after 3 to 6 months. If it does not, then the product really is not doing well for you.

Vit C is no really a moisturizer. So moisterizing does not really mean anything as far as effectiveness.

Irritation is not an indication that it works either. I make a nice Vit C product for personal use, that is not at all irritating feeling to me, because of other additives, but I find it very effective.

Dianna Yvonne has some good Vit C products from what I under stand, and they are properly formulated. They are costly however, as most good Vit Cs are. But you can order samples. I believe http://www.skincarecentral.biz carries them also

I am sure there are others.

free skin care · Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:20 am

i never see the effect .
i take the bio 2 type collgen supplement of source's natural.
and at the same time i take antioxidant and b-complex supplement. Embarassed

free skin care · Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:00 am

Thank Tangal so much for your information. But is it ok to use AHA/BHA acid or Exfol Serum every day for exfoliate? My skin is not so sensitive, but sometimes it is a bit. I am afraid it will be too much to use acid every day.
I use retinol every night which should be layer on the clean skin. Do you think I can directly put Vit.C after retinol 20 minutes' waiting?
Also it is quite difficult to find the cleanser with low ph value.
It is really complicating and difficult to do skin care!

free skin care · Thu May 07, 2009 3:41 am

Tangal wrote:

sort-of. But a bit more complex.

We know Vit C stays in skin for a long time. But the levels degrade slowly after the initial application. So for antioxitive effect - you use it daily.

We don't know exactly how fast it degrades in the skin, we just have a rough average. So we can't say - "at 30 minutes you loose 10% of your protection, at 60 minutes you loose 40%....etc"

Its not that cut and dry. You may loos 90% of it in 60 minutes for example. We do know the skin does hold some still after 24 to 48 hours, maybe even longer. But amounts are sketchy, and vary based on age, skintype, health level, skin thickness, and 8000 other things that are still unknown. Antioxitive studies are still quite new. And there are literally thousands of very good antioxitives, that work very simular. There is not one "best" one - rather, best results seem to be had from useing a rabge of AOs. Since the skin absorbs them often slightly differently.

For exfoliation/collagen effect, using C daily may be to much/to strong for some people to use once or twice daily, because you need it at a lower pH and higher strength then you need for the oxidative effects. This is a more irritating level.

For example L-Ascorbic Acid is the best documented as far as collagen rebuilding. But must be used at a low pH around 2 - 2.3 range, with a strength of 10%.

This can be irritating and drying. But for the best "treatment" effect this is the best level for this type of C.

Other types of C are less irritating, but also less effective, however for some they can provide simular benifits. But much less documentation on them.

It also needs to be applyed to clean skin for best absorption, and left alone for 10 to 20 minutes. Because if you alter the pH by putting another product on top (like sunscreen) you stop all exfoliation activity. After 20 to 30 minutes, the skin pH has risen to 4.5-5.5 so applying anything at that point is okay- as you have already received all the exfoliation you will get.

UV exposure before you have finished your exfoliation/treatment activity will lessen the efficientcy of the product. It will stop that action. However you will still get the AO action, assuming the product is well formulated, applyed correctly, and asorbed into the skin before applying anything else.

Other Vit C types are less pH dependant, and more stable, but again, the effects may not be so good on collagen effects. Studies do not support their benifit in this area really. Though some users feel some will work in simular manners.

For Anti-Oxidant effect, you only need 3% or so, and the pH can be higher, as much as 5.0. Much less irritating, and this will absorb into the skin tissues for roughly 24-48 hours. (varies based on a bunch of facter)

However it does not stay at that same level the entire time, so for best overall AO (antioxidant effect) most ppl use a Combo of Anti-oxitive products (C, E, Green Tea, CO-Q10, on and on) and apply them every 24 hours, in the AM. This gives the strongest dose before UV exposure, when its needed most, and as levels degrade, you are under less UV stress - so hopefully still benifiting.

For the same reason, many sunscreens now add AOs to the products, Such As Vit C, E, Tea Extract etc. This allows you to get your AO benifit with your sunscreen or moisterizer. Just so you know, this type of product will not give the collagen rebuilding effects. For that you will need a higher strentgh product, that you would use in the PM. Smile

I actually have a Vit C product for PM use, and an AO complex for AM use.(has a number of AOs not just C)

Thank you, I've learn so much from your answer, writing everything down to remeber. I didn't know there was a difference in the Vitamin C serums, I only thought it was to use in AM, and for sun exposure.
I'm using a 15% vita C serum AM right now, started two weeks ago. Starting tonight, I will only use it nighttime.
do you or anyone else have any good suggestion on AO to use as serums in AM, as in your recommendation?

And a question, when it says apply on clean skin - can't I even use a face water after cleansing?
Does that interfere with the pH of the vitamin C serum at PM?
And how much does the cleansers pH lever interfere?

free skin care · Thu May 07, 2009 4:01 am

Thank you Tangal for all the wonderful information! I wonder if an ACV toner would bring down the skin's pH?

free skin care · Wed May 27, 2009 8:38 am

why don't try vit.c and collagen through injection?

free skin care · Wed May 27, 2009 10:06 am

For those people who are looking for a cleanser with low pH value.

The pH value facial cleanser of Neostrata is 3.3

free skin care · Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:43 pm

Not all Collagen supplements are created equal, there are different types etc. Anyway I am not going into detail as you can google the info. I use Tru Marine Collagen and have been for over a year now. My face is fuller and I no longer need filler. I use Within Us brand.

free skin care · Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:41 pm

Collagen powder is probably much more convenient than pills, I use Neocell hydrolysed collagen type 1 & 3, also Neocell Derma Matrix since the local shop runs out of the former often and I like to stock up. It's pretty much the same thing but with some hyaluronic acid added and a small amount of vitamin C.

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