A question about the effective types of C serums
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Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:45 am

Coming to the end of my bottle of Skinceuticals serum I am looking around for an alternative. [The Skinceuticals 15 discoloured very quickly and ended up a dark amber colour with 2 months].
However, I am confused about the claims made for the best type of Vitamin C for effectiveness and stability. Some research claims that the only form of C that is effectively absorbed and utilised by the skin is L'ascorbic acid [as used in Cellex C , Skinceuticals etc], while other research advocates the use of C esters and other forms of C [magnesium ascorbyl phosphate and sodium ascorbate].
Any suggestions, information, or links would be greatly apreciated.
Andrevi

free skin care · Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:49 pm

I'm a recent convert to Skinceuticals. I've read some stuff re L-Ascorbic vs. esters too. Apparently esters like MAP need to be absorbed into the skin and then be converted to a usable form of Vit C. I did not notice much difference on my skin when I was using MAP. I've used Serum 10 for about 6 weeks and I am seeing some results already.

I'm concerned about oxidation too. Upon opening my bottle the serum was light yellow. It has turned a bit darker so I increased the amount I apply everyday coz I want to use up as much product as I can while its still good. You might I'm running a race against oxidation Laughing

I once saw an article comparing Vit C ingredients and strength of various skincare lines, along with info re L-Ascorbic vs esters - I believe it was at MUA. I found that article through a link posted on one of the Vit C threads in this forum. Can't find it now, sorry.

free skin care · Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:00 pm

that sounds really weird...javascript:emoticon('

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Confused never heard about it,actually...

free skin care · Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:12 pm

I personally, only like to use L-Ascorbic serums, but JB C&C seems to be getting great reviews it contains C ester I believe. As long as there is still some question as to the effectivness of C esters, I will pass on using them.

On the oxidization issue, this too is still *up in the air*. I use my serum for about 2 months, and although it has darkened by then, it is not too dark or unrecognizable. I had to increase the amount I use too, to get through the bottle in 2 months. If there is any left over, I just use it on my chest or something. Vivier and Cellular Skin Rx seem to be the most stable.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:55 pm

I have found that Cellex-C and Skinceuticals, while effective, do turn orange a bit too quickly. They maintain that this doesn't really impact the effectiveness of the serum, I'm not convinced about that but that is just my personal opinion. I don't like using dark C serums anyway because I find that they stain. Vivier seems to stay a light color for *way* longer than Cellex-C or Skinceuticals and it also feels more comfortable on the skin.

As to the difference between l-ascorbic and C esters, I read that the l-ascorbic is supposed to be more effective than the ester but at the same time less stable. The esters were also recommended for people with sensitive skin. The JB C&C serum (which I'm really liking as well) has a mix of both types of vit C as far as I know (5% each).

free skin care · Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:24 am

Hi Faith,
I see you're in the race too Laughing

Great idea on using Vit C on your chest once it turns dark! I'm going to follow suit.

Hi Mabsy,

My skin is a tad sensitive and I experienced stinging with both L-Ascorbic acid (still do occasionally even after 6 weeks use, its worse if I exfoliated first) and MAP. My Serum 10 is entry-level and I plan to step up to 15 or maybe 20 next. I'm considering the Vivier that you recommended in other threads because of the impending colder/drier weather. Are you now liking the JB C&C better than the Vivier?

Thanks for sharing on this forum Mabsy. I enjoy reading your posts and learn a lot from them. It was your post that turned me on to Dermalogica Microfoliant. Love it! Slowing down on the exfoliation right now though as I'm seeing some broken caps. (Oops, sorry I'm went OT)

Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:52 am

Crazyskin,

I'm really glad you're liking the Microfoliant. I think it's particularly good when used in combination with a C serum - it seems to speed up healing of post-blemish marks.

What C serum are you using? I have found that Cellex-C and Skineuticals are more likely to sting. I've not had any stinging at all with Vivier or the JB C&C. Since you have sensitive skin I'd be on the safe side and not go up straight to a 20%. I don't think Vivier has an in-between concentration serum and the JB C&C is a 10% one. I am preferring the JB C&C for its texture but I still think the results are not the same as the Vivier 20% I was using previously (I could be wrong, it's hard to tell these things as the difference is subtle for someone my age anyway). The C serum made by CSRx has a 12% concentration from what I remember and also should not sting. My only problem with that one was that it felt a tad too oily for my skin. If you have dry skin and winter is coming then you might find this is a good choice.

If you have your heart set on the Vivier 20% then *please* get a sample first and see how your skin takes it. I think it's really gentle but I don't have sensitive skin so I'm always worried about recommending it to others.

free skin care · Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:43 am

Mabsy,
Thanks for your response. Post-blemish marks are exactly the reason why I decided to try Microfoliant. Mine have faded considerably.

I'm using Skinceuticals and I've stuck with it because when the stinging does happen it lasts for about a minute only and then all is well again. My skin is oily almost all over in the summer, moderately oily in the colder seasons. Don't worry about your recs, I have learned to be more cautious now re my skin care products. Those days of impulsively picking up products that catch my fancy are long gone. So yes, I will get samples of the Vivier first.

Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:33 pm

Ok, I feel better knowing that you're a "try before you buy" person Smile

There's a chance that you may not like the texture of the Vivier serum. Personally, I'd stick with the Cellex-C or Skinceuticals if I had oily skin but I look forward to hearing what you think of the Vivier if you try it.

free skin care · Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:46 pm

Here's a few things to think about re Vitamin C serums:
1. L-ascorbic acid is the most effective because it does not have to be broken down by your skin to be absorbed while C-esters, MAP, MAG, etc. However it is the most unstable form of C when exposed to water. This is why you will see the yellowish/amber/brownish color occur. The C is oxidizing as it comes in contact with oxygen in the water in an aqueous formula. I use the C+ Firming serum from Cellularskinrx.com because it contains no water and the propylene glycol base increases penetration of the C into the skin.

I have read that when you see the discoloration and the c is oxidized it is not a good thing to continue using as the serum will be a PRO-oxidant. Just want you don't want on your skin.

2. You want a ph of 3.0-3.5 so that the C is effective but not too acidic (less than 3)to the point it would irritate your skin. More than 4 and it's simply not as effective.

3. You want a package that protects the serum from light and air. A dark, airless pump bottle would be optimal but I have yet to see a C serum come packaged this way.

I have enjoyed my CSRx C serum for a long time now so I haven't tried the Vivier or the J-B. I will say that the CSRx one is very slippery but not oily. It soaks in very quickly and leaves no sticky residue which some C will do. It is also not so expensive at $38 for a bottle that lasts me about 10 weeks or so.

Good luck on finding the perfect C for you!

free skin care · Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:18 pm

Hi Mabsy,
I'll see how it goes. It makes sense to stick with Skinceuticals in the next step up because the only change would be in the Vit C strength. Less drastic, thus less irritating coz I have acclimated to the other ingredients. When the weather gets colder/drier I will use the B5 more consistently, that might do the job. If not, I just want to have other options. Will certainly report back.

Hey betterat40, great summary! This may be stupid questions Embarassed

but... If one were to use oxidized serum what would the effects be? What is a pro oxidant? Are benzoyl peroxide/ hydrogen peroxide pro oxidants? Just want to figure out if I messed up my skin further by using those.

Thanks to all for the helpful info!

free skin care · Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:28 pm

A pro-oxidant would encourage the formation of free radicals that attach to your collagen layer making it brittle and thin. You are right that both benzoyl peroxide and hydrogen peroxide are pro-oxidants to some extent. Hydrogen peroxide is no longer used in hospitals etc. for wound care as it was determined that it hurt the skin and inhibited wound healing (although good at killing bacteria). They have found that simple saline solution works just as well and doesn't inhibit wound healing.

As for BP, generally it is used for spot treatment or in a wash so it seems that limited use is appropriate. Since it just recently was declared the best and least expensive treatment for acne (great bacteria killer), it's a toss-up I guess if you use it for that. I do use Neutrogena's on the spot for the occasional surface pimple and it works like a dream. I would be reluctant to use it all over my face all the time.

sorry I can't be more definitive...

free skin care · Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:19 pm

Hi Crazyskin,

I don't know if you've tried a sample of SkinCeuticals' Ferulic? Despite this being at same acidic pH as C+E, I find it so gentle that I've never had stinging from it even with my skin being red and peeling from retinol use.

Betterat40,

Vit c is water soluble. If CSRx C does not contain even a molecule of water, I wonder how they got their C to dissolve in propylene glycol?

free skin care · Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:23 pm

The whole/effective/ineffective/stable/unstable/use-it-up/throw-it-out question is making me crazy Laughing

I'm ready to give it up altogether Laughing

I'd like to see some actual studies in support of either argument...we spend so much money on this stuff and there is such a well of difference in price amongst the throng of VCs on the market...it would be great just to *know* absolutely - either way...Cellex C claims that it's product is effective for six months upon opening.....Pinnell, the lead scientist for Skinceuticals who sits on just about every derm-related board in this galaxy (you know what I mean..)published a study in The Journal of Cutaneous Aging and Cosmetic Dermatology (1988/99)that challenged the stability of l-ascorbic acid exposed to air..the findings confirmed that skin collagen synthesis continued at a rate of 95% after oxidation occurred.....I really think that if oxidation truly destroyed the efficacy of the VC then wouldn't the non-aqueous producers be using the stable, non-aqueous properties of their product as selling features when promoting their C?....oh, I don't know...maybe they are already doing it and I'm just out of the loop...
Pudoodles

free skin care · Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:46 pm

I'd say given the conflicting reports, find a C you like and watch for personal results. If you see them with either aqueous or non-aqueous solutions and you are happy with those results then stick with that product. If not, try another that is different from the first. (aqueous vs. non-aq.)

Though stability has been questioned, the anti-aging effects of vitamin C have not so I would just make sure and continue to incorporate it into any skincare routine I followed.

free skin care · Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:49 pm

I really liked the feel of the JB C serum, but I couldn't see from the ingredients that it had any L-ascorbic acid. Maybe there is an ingredient listed that contains it that I'm missing, but it isn't listed on the ingredient list otherwise. I used my entire bottle of JB, not including what I lost when I tipped the bottle, Rolling Eyes

and while I loved the feel of it and how it went on, I really couldn't tell if it was doing anything. Because of that and that I can't find any L-ascorbic acid, I don't think that I will be reordering. I decided that even if it had 5% L-ascorbic acid that it seems low and without having anything definitive on the effectiveness of the esters, I think I'll try the Vivier. I don't want to take the chance that it might not be doing anything but feeling good since I have a limited C budget.

I was using the SC C+E before but am going to try a straight C now. Like everyone else, I wish we had more information, but I find that I wish that a lot as I try new things. Darn it.

free skin care · Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 pm

Hi betterat40, thanks a lot for the info! I think I overdid the BP/HP as I was desperate to calm down a terrible run of hormonal acne a few months back. Darn that BP!!! And double darn that HP!!! Mad

So not worth it, my skin became sensitive and papery. Glad I've stopped using them.

Well hello Bad Bird! Nice to run into you. No, I haven't tried the Ferulic. I'm using the Skinceuticals' lowest concentration to decrease the chances of irritation. I plan to increase in Vit C strength gradually up to the 20% maximum, then maybe do the boosted versions (E or Ferulic). Do you think this plan is sound, or can I go directly to Ferulic? It would be great if I could take the shortest route to my goal.

Hiya Pudoodles, bought any new lipsticks lately? Laughing

I agree with betterat40, it all boils down to whether one is seeing results. I'm only halfway through my bottle, its only been 6 weeks and I can see some improvement already!

Thank you all for holding my hand through my skin care overhaul process Very Happy

free skin care · Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:48 am

I have personally found that using a C with E is less irritating on my skin. Also more moisturizing. Smile

free skin care · Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:51 am

betterat40 wrote:

I'd say given the conflicting reports, find a C you like and watch for personal results. If you see them with either aqueous or non-aqueous solutions and you are happy with those results then stick with that product. If not, try another that is different from the first. (aqueous vs. non-aq.)

Though stability has been questioned, the anti-aging effects of vitamin C have not so I would just make sure and continue to incorporate it into any skincare routine I followed.

Now that's my favourite post of the day!
Pudoodles

free skin care · Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:01 am

Hi Crazyskin,

As Faith mentioned, the C+E may turn out to be less irritating for you. I was myself amazed at what a difference in gentleness the Ferulic is compared to C+E, although I didn't find C+E irritating or drying in the least.

In view of your sensitivity, you may want to obtain a sample of the Ferulic first, but I would definitely give it a try. You never know. Smile

free skin care · Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:44 pm

Thank you BadBird and Faith for your input. The Skinceuticals website says the %C in the C+E and CE Ferulic are both 15%. Yay

That means I can increase my %C and yet avoid irritation.

Faith, the serum is making my skin drier which is OK for the warm months as I am oilier then but I will definitely need something more moist by September. Luckily that would also be around the same time my supply runs out. Very Happy

Bad Bird, I'm guessing you already researched Ferulic. Can you please share anything you found out? I'm clueless about this ingredient apart from what I read in the SC website.

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