Copper Peptides
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free skin care · Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:25 am

I experienced the "uglies" once. It was the first time I upgraded to Super Cop after using Super CP Serum. I wanted to send it back but Dr. Pickart told me that I used too much too soon. He was right. Like Tex, I diluted it with other products (squalane or hylauronic). The 1st generation cp products are for people who can't tolerate his 2nd generation products. He has actually re-introduced his first version which is great for people with extremely sensitive skin. He will tell you himself that the 2nd generation produces superior results for age reversal. But for those who can't use the 2nd generation, some is better than none!

Taking 1,000 mg. of vitamin C daily in conjunction with ANY CP product is what improves skin elasticity so much. Both must be present.

FYI: Dr. Pickart was giving away one of his books with a purchase a while ago and still may be - not positive. It's a good book LOADED with information.

Nanci

free skin care · Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:12 am

Winnie wrote:

I can remember several members talking about the "uglies." Does everyone experience uglies? If so, can this be avoided and how long does it last?

I thought it best to directly respond to your questions since that's what you asked! No, not everyone gets them. I think it is largely due to going to fast with CPs and the best way to avoid them is to take it slowly. I have only twice noticed sagging (another form of uglies) and that was when I got careless with Super Cop 2x during spot treating. It diminished immediately after I backed off. You need to watch your skin, though, so you can see when something new comes up. BTW, uglies refers to sagging or "new" wrinkles that are pushing their way up to then be disgarded. Here is a picture with two sets of comparison pics. The first is of the left side of my face about halfway into when I first started CPs with a second pic taken a few months back. Notice that the lines are quite significant - they did not look like this when I started (you can see this in the first pic of the second set) and then the outcome. The second two pics show before I started CPs and a very recent one - notice definite tightening on the forehead, jawline and neck; overall skin tone looks creamy, bright and has a natural glow now (no makeup in either pic though I am about 8 lbs. heavier in the 2nd). I do use the Quasar SP and regularly exfoliate but absolutely give credit to CPs for the improvement in tightening and assisting with skin tone (my Quasar and Vitamin C also help). The first set is an example of looking worse before it looks better:

Follow a dilution schedule as follows and begin with the weakest formula (CP Serum or the 1st gen products, if you are extremely sensitive or hesitant):

4 drops CP + 4 drops water - now
5 drops CP + 3 drops water - 2 weeks
6 drops CP + 2 drops water - 2 weeks
7 drops CP + 1 drop water - 2 weeks
8 drops CP

Vit. C is a big part of my skin care routine. I was thinking of using the CP's at night and Vit. C in the AM. From what I understand you can take Vit C internally while using CP's. Do EDS members currently using CP's also use Vit. C?

Yes, I agree strongly in the power of Vitamin C and use it in the AM only (you should not use CPs and Vitamin C together and their effects will be cancelled). This also works well, IMO, for the antioxidant benefits that Vit C provides. I also take it internally twice a day in a powdered form along with a few other supplements in a water juice mix.

Any information you can share concerning CP's would be most appreciated.

Thank you,
Winnie

free skin care · Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:21 am

Just to reassure some of you. I've used CPs (all of 'em) for several years now and never experienced the uglies.

I didn't use them alongside strong peels (15% buffered glycolic is the strongest I've ever used and more usually 10%).

The only problem I ever had was with the night eyes (the original formulation - it's now changed). It gave me immediate undereye lines Shock

despite very cautious use.

I've told the story before, but I read at the time on the Skinbio forum that a lot of people were complaining about the same problem and Dr P put it down to a bad batch of the eye cream so I just threw it away.

I then forgot about it and used the regular CPs on my undereyes and it was fine.

My sister then ordered a batch of CPs because my skin was looking very impressive and she had the exact same reaction with the night eyes.

I don't think you can call this the uglies because it wasn't some long-term action of the cream. Just an immediate and totally adverse reaction. I understand he has changed the formula now, but I'd still be really cautious about the eye area. That is where all the really serious, my-skin's-ruined type complaints seem to stem from.

Out of the lot of them, in my experience: I'd say CP serum, the P&R creams and even SuperCP serum are not going to reverse aging/wrinkles. They give you better moisture retention, healthier, slightly thicker skin, but until you get to the Supercop creams I didn't see retinoid type structural build.

And watch out for those creams because they aren't great for a lot of acne prone individuals. Unfortunately, Skinbio has a lot of trouble stabilising high levels of CPs so they don't seem able to change this.

*edited* OK, I'm thinking out loud here. Just trying to pinpoint what the difference is between Scally's temporary uglies and my results.

Maybe I have experienced the uglies. I get slightly rougher skin after using supercop, but it's not really noticeable or ugly.

The other difference is last time I used Retinaldehyde alongside. I think it's important to use other collagen stimulators (though I guess that's what Scally uses the peels for) alongside considering the CPs have the unique action of eliminating damaged proteins.

free skin care · Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:46 am

Ah, Molly! Do not apologize for running on as it's good to have someone to discuss the fine nuances of CP experience. You are the only other person I know of on the forums who is a long-term user and I appreciate your comments regarding my query.

Perhaps, at some point, I will add SC2x to my Super Serum mix as a way to achieve some of the advanced benefits but hopefully avoid the possible breakouts. I did and do use it for spot treating, as you know, and the uglies that I experienced (one time of two) was due to laziness in applying (I just rubbed it all over the area rather than dotting the cream on). I did not breakout that I can recall so perhaps I will be able to use it in future but in a mix ratio.

I do think you are onto something with regard to the level of exfoliation I do. It's certain that the sloughing is allowing deeper penetration of the CPs, as well as faster turnover of cells. I also do apply my BHO mix AFTER for further penetration (always have). The fact that I had something to fix is also true as I had a point of reference for comparison. I, too, am a side sleeper, and do not have the wrinkles that I used to get on my face after I wake up. If there are any, they pop out within minutes and my skin is definitely more plump, resilient and thicker. I wonder, too, if this is also assisting with my broken caps not appearing as obvious (they are continuing to diminish) since my skin is not as thin anymore. Right now, I am at 95% Super CP Serum/CP Serum on my face and just about to switch all the way over. On my neck, I use CP Serum as I did experience minor sagging under my jaw (my 2nd ugly) from too much Super CP Serum there. It has since calmed down with just CP Serum and my neck has definitely tightened up. However, it was not really loose to start with but not "fresh" looking, I'd say. Things are much nicer now.

As for the acne, yes, absolutely I had it and still do experience a bit but mostly from irritants due to ingredients. So, I am continuously discovering new scars and some times my cheeks look better than others. My left is the battleground right now while the right is looking mostly smooth (not perfect, mind you, but for me this is a huge improvement). I will continue to attack with spot treatment when I can and intermittent peels every 3 weeks or so depending on the state of my skin. In the interim, I have added Ystheal Gel back to my PM routine and it is working wonderfully (I do not use it while peeling and wait a few days after it's over to begin again). I can use it every night with no dryness and believe this is due to my taking out the BHA/AHAs from my routine. Perhaps as the warmer weather approaches, I will add back mandelic acid but only for my cheeks and forehead. Who knows, though. It's a constant process of tweaking but my staples are some form of exfoliation, CPs, Vitamin C, sea kelp and beta glucans (most recent addition and I think this is also keeping me nicely hydrated).

free skin care · Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:18 am

majorb wrote:

Can I just ask what CP enthusiasts use to measure out equal drops of CPs and water, please? I'm assuming some kind of pipette or something?

Major, I used the drops from the CP serum and then filled a small dropper bottle (the kind with a little plastic piece on the lid that pops up and dispenses drops or, if squeezed, a larger amount) with distilled water and then add both in my palm, mix and apply.

free skin care · Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:33 am

skincarefreak wrote:

MBGirl wrote:

If the GHK molecule is the one that was used in the studies, then that is certainly the copper peptide that I would want to use. Do ANY companies use this molecule in the exact percentage and in the same carrier as was used in the study showing postive affects on collagen?
That this molecule was under a patent raises a red flag for me in regard to buying any other sort of copper peptide molecule. My best guess is that this is the molecule that works best, at the right strength and in the right delivery medium. There MUST be a way to find out the percentage of this molecule in the available products...isn't there??!!

I'm really not sure...I don't know what percentage was used on the studies. If you find out let us know. Smile

MBGirl - Unfortunately you'd be one of many trapsing from forum to forum trying to glean this info. I've looked at the studies on Pubmed but can't find the %.

The closest I ever came to getting it was on theskincareboard but it's been erased since - and I wasn't looking for that exact info at that time. Some ex-forum member might know and I've tried asking.

In essence none of the GHKs on the market then were close to the levels (e.g. Neova etc) which is why they were all opting for Skinbio's despite the changed molecule, but now it's patent's expired you'd hope some bright spark would come up with a reasonably priced serum with the right percentage.

free skin care · Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:12 am

yogi wrote:

I have a question about wait times. Doesn't Skin Bios P&R have both copper and retinol in it? If so, do we really need a wait time when layering them? TIA!

Protect & Restore comes in different formulas. They all have copper peptide in them, but only 1 has retinol. I don't think you need to wait to layer them - I don't.

free skin care · Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:35 am

yogi wrote:

I think I wrote my question pre-caffine, so I wasn't very clear!
If there is a P&R w/retinol, wouldn't that indicate that when using separate products on the face - CP and retinol - that there is no need for a wait time?

(maybe that's what you were saying Smile

)

Yogi, the retinol in P&R is a small amount and is to assist with absorption of the CP so no wait time. It has a different use than say, Ystheal Gel, which needs the 30-40 minutes to convert to retinoic acid for anti-aging. Make sense?

free skin care · Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:43 am

Yogi - it's just a tiny amount of retinyl palmitate; the action is more to promote natural oil production than anything (which is why it's not recommended for acne prone skin types). It really doesn't act like a retinoid.

free skin care · Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:32 am

Hi Winnie, from what I got from Dr. Pickart's website - and from what I always THOUGHT, Copper Peptide cancels out Vitamin C. I have an email sent to Skinbiology about it and will report back. Someone (sorry, can't remember) wrote in and said that C cancels CP so...... we need to get to the bottom of this. I'm on it! Smile

free skin care · Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:39 am

NCN wrote:

Hi Winnie, from what I got from Dr. Pickart's website - and from what I always THOUGHT, Copper Peptide cancels out Vitamin C. I have an email sent to Skinbiology about it and will report back. Someone (sorry, can't remember) wrote in and said that C cancels CP so...... we need to get to the bottom of this. I'm on it! Smile

I called Skinbiology. They told me that I could continue using Dr. Denese's Firming Pads if I was willing to cancel out the Vitamin C. They told me that the CP strength would not be compromised with a product containing C. I was very happy to hear this as I love what Dr. Denese Firming Pads does for my skin. I also use her SPF 30 which contains C.

free skin care · Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:12 pm

Ritas,

Please don't think you are bothering anyone by asking questions. That's what this forum is for! There is so much to learn, it can be very overwhelming.
I order my CPs from Skinbiology, but I believe there are other sites which offer them.
There's a lot a reading on this website. I started with regular CP serum a few months ago, and am now ready for super CP serum. You have to start out very slowly, though. HTHhttp://store.skinbiology.com/catalog/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog&parent_id=250

free skin care · Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:29 pm

I asked Dr.Pickart about his GHK serum and the original studies - here is the post and his reply:

Quote:

Dr.Pickart - I would like to know if your new GHK serum is the same strength of the one used in the original studies?

I would also love to read the original studies - are they available?

Thanks a lot

Dr.Pickarts reply:

Quote:

It is anywhere from 5 (for studies of face creams) to 50 times stronger (for studies of eye creams).

The original studies are cited inwww.skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html.
I can't post the articles because they are copyrighted.

I just wanted to let you know, since this question has come up previously Smile

free skin care · Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:28 am

Hi Bellezza - I am in the process of revamping my CP product routine in order to optimize results because I am not seeing any visible improvements either. In my case I think I've figured out a portion of the problem; I need to remove more of the damaged skin proteins on my face that are invisible to the naked eye, but behave like a type of 'glue' by holding dead skin cells to the skin (causing it to look dull). Damaged proteins are not removed by the simple act of washing your face and require a much stronger exfoliating product, such as a chemical peel. For months now I have been using Skinbio's LacSal Exfoliating Serum before I applied the GHK, but this isn't enough anymore. So I introduced an at-home 30% Lactic Acid Peel and this is making a nice difference, but I'm not out of the woods yet.

Though the GHK has not improved the area's of my face that concern me the most, it has helped to heal and repair my damaged skin barrier (a definite step forward!). When I first began using LacSal, my face would tingle and at times burn a little, and often looked pink for 10-15 minutes after application. This is typical for people like myself who suffer from dry sensitive skin. I am very happy to say that the LacSal no longer creates any irritation and I can tolerate much stronger products now without any adverse effects. I was told that my dry and sensitive skin would stop becoming easily irritated once my skin barrier began to heal with continual use of CP's, and by Jove, it has! My experience is a reminder that starting off with a mild & non-irritating copper peptide does have it's advantages. Wink

So for anyone scared of CP's, try the GHK first because it truly will not cause the dreaded 'uglies' to develop, and it will begin the process of gently repairing your skin.

The Skinbio site often reminds us (in it's own unique way Rolling Eyes

) that the key to positive results is to go slowly with each complex strength and that additional improvements can be gained by using products or treatments that 'trigger' skin renewal, thus stimulating another remodeling process. In other words, CP results can be enhanced by 'healing' the skin from a perceived wound that was created from having a chemical peel or laser treatment (as an example). The CP complex achieves this by penetrating the hair follicles on the wounded skin and sending a remodeling signal to enlarge them. The enlarged hair follicles then begin to produce new skin cells that migrate into the surrounding skin and rebuild the damaged area. Voilà! Once the wound has 'healed' the end result is remodeled facial skin that contains new levels of collagen & elastin density. Conversely, the application of copper-peptide's to the skin's surface that isn't woundedcreates an environment that helps the skin tighten its barrier and also increases its collagen and elastin density. I just wish I knew if the rate of skin cell turnover is significantly slower without a 'wound' to heal; but I don't have the answer to this question yet and will have to keep digging until I find one. The SB site simply states that skin regeneration can be 'enhanced' by introducing certain products and treatments; which all happen to have a wounding affect on the skin.

BTW, this is my 'cliff note' understanding of how CP's repair wrinkles and tighten sagging skin via remodeling. If you desire more indepth information, please contact Skinbio directly -www.skinbio.com.

Skinbio Site wrote:

Skin regeneration can be enhanced by also using: (1) exfoliating agents such as alpha hydroxy acids, beta-hydroxy acids, and retinoic acid or by; (2) methods that mildly damage skin such as laser re-surfacing or chemical peels. This is followed by a natural rebuilding of the skin that removes imperfections, rebuilds collagen and elastin fibers that tighten skin, and increases the amount of glycosamoinoglycans, the moisture-holding proteins that give skin its firmness.

Bellezza, you didn't mention if you are using Retin A, AHA's exfoliators, chemical peels or microdermabrasion. Would you be willing to try these products or treatments to enhance the results of copper peptides? I honestly believe that there is only so far you can go with any of the CP strengths by applying the complex to the surface of your skin and doing nothing else to trigger the remodeling process. I also feel that the elminination of damaged skin proteins that build up on the surface of the skin and prevent other products to penetrating fully, must be removed for optimal results.

Do you use a Clarisonic Brush at all? This is great tool to help cleanse and prep the skin for actives. Applying a biological healing oil over CP's, such as Emu or Squalane, is very effective as way to help deliver the product deeper into your skin (and your follicles!). In fact, I think that using either BHO oil (emu or squalane) should be a staple in any routine regardless of CP's because they offer so many incredible skincare benefits. Smile

Lastly, the only other 'tips' that I can pass along and that seem to help improve the effectiveness of CP's and increase your results, are daily doses of MSM (1-2 grams), and Vitamin C (1-2 grams). I have tried the tablet versions of both supplements and they do not compare to the powdered alternatives. You simply mix both powders with water or juice and drink it once a day. Just be careful to buy products that do not contain any 'fillers', as the extra junk in the cheaper brands really lessen the positive effects and absorption levels.

~Scots wave

free skin care · Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:44 am

Hi Angelwings1226! I would suggest the Folligen Cream followed by Emu Oil for your eyelashes and eyebrows rather than the GHK product. Folligen Cream is made especially for hair growth and it costs SO much less than GHK. I've been using copper peptide (using Super Cop X2 now) for 8 years with no increased hair growth at all. And although you've read where GHK has increased hair growth, it is extremely rare. You're young and honestly the best thing that you can do for your skin is use a good natural SPF every day. Good luck to you! Nanci

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